BGA Venting Thread ;)

For sure, I'm personally fascinated by the psychological aspect of this entire event both current and in the future. By fascinated I don't mean joyful about the devastating physical/psychological fallout of Covid, I just mean I am interested in the different ways in which it has shaped the globe. Few things in my lifetime I can say altered daily life on a global scale, perhaps no other event in my life has had such an impact depending on the definition. Regardless of the wide variety of viewpoints on Covid, I believe we have great potential for positive change as well as great potential to repeat our mistakes.

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I expect the worst but hope for the best.

I have real concern for infants as, if they arent socialized by 4, it becomes exponentially more difficult to socialize or doesnt happen at all.

Hopefully people can get their wits about them and move forward steadily to a healthier tomorrow

 

All major pandemics have lead to societal change, it's a very interesting topic.

 

https://www.tomsguide.com/uk/opinio...future-of-laptops-and-thats-why-im-buying-one

 

Linus did a video on that one too, mostly I think with the integration of thunderbolt into the CPU that could give the best modularity.

 

It is unfortunate that the Framework laptop isn't a more robust form factor with a desktop CPU and MXM capabilities. They could standardize a motherboard form factor that would allow you to upgrade as new CPU and chipset technology evolves and then they would have something really special. Maybe if their business really takes off and does well financially they'll keep the small, thin and light version for the kiddos and release a big, thick and heavy monster for those that demand more than the cute one can deliver.

 

I'd give up on having the GPU internal and run with a fast external connection, I think that would fit a lot of people. Give the internal space and cooling to an H series CPU.

 

I'd just stick with a desktop and use a cheap Chromebook as a laptop or an older laptop that still works well but costs almost nothing instead of going that route. Otherwise, it is just a tinker toy that needs to be tethered to a desk, but still can't run like a desktop. An eGPU has functional limitations, some level of complications with drivers at times, and you still have a weak CPU with crummy firmware. Hopefully, the folks at Framework won't be as stupid about firmware lockdowns as the competitors they whose customers they are taking. If they have been paying attention and actually learnt something they will know that the filth the OEMs are calling firmware on laptops is totally unacceptable.

 

There is a lot more you can do with a proper laptop on the go and you can make it very portable but still run a well clocked chip.

 

A perfect combination of these two ideas would be to have DTRs with socketed desktop CPUs and no dGPU. Instead, these laptops would have an Oculink port for external graphics.

Let's face it, we're usually plugged into a wall outlet while gaming anyway, so external graphics isn't a hassle. With a small enough enclosure, the GPU would be easy to take with you too. Foregoing the dGPU inside the laptop would give us a beefier cooling system for the CPU, and we'd get really good battery life even from a desktop CPU. The laptop could still be thin and light too despite sporting a desktop CPU, thus appealing to the masses! Additionally, Oculink doesn't have limitations like Thunderbolt since Oculink is an actual miniaturized PCIe port, just like Alienware's AGA port.

The only caveat is the power supply. Hopefully designers take a cue from Asus and provide a power supply that can power both the laptop and eGPU. This way, you only have to carry around one power brick. Asus's offering powers an eGPU directly from the Oculink port, which is awesome.

The closest laptop we have to what I just described is the Eurocom Commander 2, but you can't do any overclocking with it since the motherboard is a Q370 chipset instead of a Z370. It also doesn't have an Oculink port. Here's to hoping someone makes a laptop like I described.

 

Making it too thick and you may as well have a thin and light and a DTR.

 

I've been lucky enough to have an array of BGA laptops sent my way (my signature runneth over with them now). Tossing the Acer Swift 3 in my bag like it weighs nothing yet packs a decent punch and can run away from a power source for hours can't be ignored.The XPS 9710 has given me pause on crapping too hard on the BGA market as it (and the size of other BGAs that have been sent my way) do make you realize the trade offs for some (many) are worth it versus traditionally large DTRs where the power supply(s) sometimes weigh more than the T&L laptops themselves.

Looking at the performance of Alienware's x17 and Lenovo's 7i and their mobile CPU numbers in performance mode are nothing to scoff at as they're scoring right in the same ballpark as the X170KM-G in Cinebench.

I can see merit in someone buying an eGPU and using something like the 9710 on the go and when you get home attach that one, nifty TB3 cable and have a very capable gaming rig and desktop ready to go.

My main issue will continue to be the death of choice between DTRs vs T&Ls but that is market forces at work and that's just reality.

There was a time where there was a pretty large offering of big, powerful DTRs from several companies (Dell/Alienware, MSI, Clevo) along with a decent selection of fairly powerful T&Ls, but companies react to market conditions and consumer demand so somewhere in there enough of the consumers shifted the focus for makers from big powerful DTRs to "powerful enough" T&Ls and the DTR market has continued to shrink year after year till we're now down to effectively Clevo and only with one model (X170xM-G).

My biggest concern is the DTR market will continue to contract to the point where even making one truly DTR will not make financial sense. Even the X170KM with all its size, cooling and available power is falling victim to following Nvidia's mobile GPU model so you end up with this powerful rig still running its GPU like it was in the chassis of a T&L.

So many points of failure requiring an entirely new system board is a fail to me.
Not being able to pick my own components down to the CPU and GPU is a fail to me.
Any system that solders on the WiFi and/or RAM is the ultimate insult and a fail to me.
Locking down the BIOS to beyond user unfriendly levels is a fail to me.

But I'm the type of user that sees merit from both types of systems as they address two types of end consumers.

The Dell XPS 9710 isn't all that bad actually...

....I still plan on getting an X170KM-G.

 

This is a very pragmatic sentiment and I like it. I wish I could be this way. I usually take the logical, pragmatic stance towards any particular subject, but I dislike BGA machines too much to be objective about it.

When I will inevitably need a successor to my X170SM-G, I will probably end up getting a high end BGA laptop (ugh) with an unlocked overclockable CPU and make my own custom laptop out of desktop parts for domestic use since there ain't any way I'm going to be allowed to take that on a plane with me.

Or I can build a desktop (even more ugh) and get a future version of the Steam Deck if those still exist. I really hope Valve is successful with those by the way.

I love desktop processing power and modularity/upgradeability, but I've always lamented the fact that you're chained to a desk with them. I want my computer to be available and usable anytime, anywhere. This is the reason I've never really gotten into desktops and have been a laptop guy since I was little. I do however always keep a desktop with equivalent specs as my laptop around as a backup machine in case my laptop fails. I don't want a crappy backup computer that I can barely do anything on.

 

You are also very rich to afford all this IT hardware. Most people don't have the financial resources to own one high-end device, let alone two.

 

Nvidia is definitely not helping. There should be a 250W mobile 3090 (really a 3080) as a halo product.

 

More like I don't really spend money on anything other than computers hehe. That's where almost all of my spending money goes. It's all about the allocation of resources! I don't really have any hobbies outside computers, video games, programming, and designing and programming video games. That makes it easy to direct the overwhelming majority of my spending money into computer hardware.

My X170SM-G is actually the first high end device I've ever owned. Even so, two mid range devices still ain't cheap either. I'm definitely very blessed, and I'm incredibly thankful for that. A lot of people can't afford 2 mid range devices even if they try allocating money to it.

It also helps that my typical refresh cycle for new machines is around 7-8 years, so I have quite a while to save up for my next dual machine setup.

 

I just wanted to let you know that my old M570TU bought in December 2008 is still working. Today I changed its display to a matte one since the semi-glossy that it had wasn't very good on sunny days.
I only use it as a backup and the last time I played on it was in May. It still plays CS: GO in FullHD - everything low @ 40 FPS .

They don't make them as they used it. Mind you, this laptop started with a P8600 CPU + GTX 980M.

 

Linus loved the concept so.....

 

Totally fair to stand behind an ethos you want to with your own money

 

Upgradable Framework Laptop Gets Marketplace to Buy Swappable Parts pcmag.com

 

It just needs a full H series processor with the upcoming integrated thunderbolt in the CPU and hopefully that will help with external GPUs to get as modular as possible.

 

I hope Framework will succeed in developing an an ecosystem around it that will attract third party OEMs supplying upgradable parts. Look at what happened to the LG G5 phone in 2016, or the dumpster fire that is Dellienware Area-51M. 'Upgradable' yes, but so damn expensive (and limited) it defeats the point.

 

Any GPU upgrade path is not going to be cheap at the moment, even with external, though things are finally more in stock over here, just at the inflated prices.

 

Tell us how you really feel.

Honestly as much as I think Linus can be a bit too full of himself most days, he is a man with a large follower base. And if frame work is going to survive they need someone like him backing them up. This honestly would be a great option to have. Instead of having to worry about replacing a whole laptop you can just upgrade what you need. But, I’ll definitely wait to see a V.2 release and see what kind of involvement Linus has on the company.

 

Dell try fishing in the same muddy water. How can this be a success when their previous modular flagship Area-51m failed before birth? And why think this will works when you know you can't even upgrade their desktops due sick proprietary design and cheapo solutions?

Dell announced a modular laptop concept, Project Luna


GPU Upgrade www.dell.com/community/Alienware/GPU-Upgrade



Why come with this questions afterwards? Of course the OEM can do whatever they want as long the buyers buy their soldered on junk with closed eyes. Or are they blind from the birth? @Mr. Fox @Ashtrix @Spartan@HIDevolution @jclausius +++

 

It's likely to be quite some time before Dell has any reason to become prosumer. Covid wrecked a lot of logistics with its hysteria, justified or otherwise.

I still have 3-4 month lead times on enterprise level purchase orders and the company I work for is one of maybe a dozen authorized "premier partners" to which anyone outside of that they don't even humor the conversation for.

To me at least, it means they can ride that Covid wave for quite some time. If anything my uninformed anecdotal perspective expects Dell to make more effort for more streamline which I believe would mean less consumer focused products.

 

Lunatic approach to lock out 3rd party repairs and also customize 3rd party community designs. Its better to invest in Framework company and devise an open model or design which is serviceable easily by end users.

 

Yeah, had to patch a few holes while companies wait for kit.

 

Yep. Tech sites don't trust Dell.

Dell's 'Concept Luna' Laptop is a Great Idea. Too Bad It's Made By Dell
http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...-and-discussion.835993/page-228#post-11133900

 

I agree with gamers nexus on this one...

 

well bois looks like BGA is the future. no more MXM that means even with desktop CPU it'll be a junk of a GPU/mobo combo.

 

If that ends up being the case I'll probably get something entry level and just use my desktop at home.

 

At least with a desktop CPU enabled laptop you can bin your own CPU to get optimal performance instead of being stuck with a soldered crap bin.....but yeah....this is just another nail in the coffin with modular graphics now EOL.

 

I'd like to think they think phasing it out now because USB4 but even if you entertain the eGPU scenario thats just more money to spend. That all being said I would go that route personally over getting a BGA GPU mostly because unless things have changed GPU's are still the highest failing component.

 

Well this seems like progress: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-alder-lake-nuc-lga-socket

The new Intel NUCs with 12th gen Alder Lake CPUs are rumored to have LGA sockets. Let's hope their motherboards aren't crippled by shady firmware updates.

 

I'd rather have a proper SFF build with a custom loop in it. The NUC is a more plug and play but less modular option.

 

yea man, kinda getting pushed to desktop or compromise with half the graphic performance desktop will have, with laptops while BGA ontop of that. top dollars for that just isn't my thing.

not to mention GPU gonna get more powerful like 500-600w in the future so laptop is getting left behind for sure. maybe we'll see a new era of 20 inch laptops again with cooling capabilities in the 300w+

 

So disappointed in the laptop space... I prefer having a laptop over a Desktop but the scene is horrible these days I can't find a single good machine that's not gonna be a paperweight in 3 years or have a motherboard burn on me. The desktop space is better not by much each year computers just seemingly get worse and worse... such a shame.

 

Nope. The trend going forwards to gaming tablets. And expect more of the cute slim 14 inch form factor laptops for gaming. You of all know that Dell Alienware always try come up in front for new trends I think the correct spelled English word for this is trendsetter/bellwether. Imagine a gaming tablet paired with an eGpu with a real +450w desktop graphics cards. How it works or perform doesn't matter much. The slim design beat performance.



Bellwether - Wikipedia

 

Most of the laptops has soldered RAM/SSD/Wifi in the name of pricing or thin/light design. I don't like trade-offs in the name of razor thin device claiming desktop like performance.

 

Not much of a choice eventually the hardware becomes obsolete and we will be forced to move to it.

 

Yes sadly i am thinking of building a desktop myself, just trying to get a RTX3090 or 6900xt on normal price, dont want to support this scalpers everywhere. Wanted to get the successor of the KM but it looks there will be none so back to desktop after a 8 year hiatus.

 

6900XT aren't bad where I live 1500 CAD I would go for that if I were you, seems everyone just interested in Nvidia cards. Why bother though when new GPUs are launching at the end of the year or at least should be... the 3090 is insane the temps on the VRAM are nuts and Nvidia will just tell you its within spec not a long lasting GPU unless ur putting in on water.

 

Yeah just waiting a little more time, in EU the reference 6900 is like 1000 euros and the rtx 3090 is 1500, there are some weekley drops but until now no luck getting one.
Still undecided on the build, if im doing a all AMD one ill want to get the toxic 6900xt or the devil ultimate, that is if im not getting a reference one, those are still 1500 till 1700 Euro. If i go the Intel route ill want to get a 3090.

 

Then jump on the 3090 Ti when it is out and that you can find one within normal price point. The new 2GB vram dies will help on this problem.

 

I'll pass on that money grab lol

 

Generally speaking this is basically always true, however this should be due to the consumer not being able to find a use case for (in this case) the laptop in question.

 

I mean day to day tasks I mean can you even run a modern version of Firefox on a pentium 4? I don't know but I assume not meaning your use case would have to change over time if you wanted to keep using that machine and if it's for work well either way your gonna have to move on at some point lol. But it's a good point every machine can still be used for something.

 

Weird things happen on single thread systems these days, even a 2 thread p4 would only be 32bit and would struggle to do anything.