Clevo Co. Market NEWS and Performance discussions

I'll agree with you for a business / professional software developer that stability is a key aspect in a business machine. It has to be. Downtime equals money. If I can't code, compile, design, debug, or whatever, it is costing the company.

I and pretty much everyone of my peers (from developers at Microsoft, Yelp, Yahoo!, GitHub, general contractors etc.) all need some decently powered machine. Some of these folks are limited to corporate purchasing agreements for hardware, and their company would never set them up with a Clevo/MSI in the first place. (Poor saps.) However, I have a bit of flexibility, and have the option on the Clevo route.

Now, I don't think I'd push a machine as hard as @Mr. Fox, @Trafficante, @Johnksss, but I'm defintely pushing the machine more than your average browser, word processor, or gamer. I need to run concurrent multiple operating systems (within virtual machines), multiple virtualized devices (iPhones, iPads, Android Phones, Tablets, etc.) running 500G+ databases against web servers. To do this, The hardware requires a minimum of 32 to 64GB RAM, 8+ core CPUs, 24+ PCIe lanes for NVME drives. Also, if you're a contractor, the machine needs to be somewhat mobile in order to travel meet/show your job's progress to clients. Oh, I should mention, the machine should be configured to not heat up a 22C room to 30 to 35C. It's a tall order to get all of this in a laptop.

Here, the high-end Clevos almost meet these requirements, but it is not quite there, and Clevo has made no progress on this front in the past 12-18 months. I would like them to improve the quality of their keyboards, improve the QC of their heat sinks/fans and provide a BIOS that is not so locked down that I cannot undervolt when needed. The lack of these things changed my mind in purchasing last year.

Unfortunately, being located in the US, I don't know anyone with an XMG system, but if XMG takes the time to clean up some of these issues, then kudos to you and XMG. I appreciate that, and hope your customers do too.

In the meantime, the fact that these complaints keep coming up appears to be nonchalance on the part of Clevo, and that is disappointing.

 

Previous post was to explain what *my* needs... But one more point I'd like to make.

I don't know if Clevo considers designing systems for my demo group ( the professional software developer/contractor ) or other professional groups like CAD systems, professional graphic artists, scientific data researches, etc. My guess is as a group we don't have the numbers when compared to gamers, but I would hope it is something that Clevo still considers. To me it seemed 15-20 years ago, they did consider me and my ilk in their DTR offerings, those were some solid machines. But lately, I wonder if that is no longer the case.

 

Thanks Tmash was being sarcastic wasn't he/she? I thought so, but now the acount is blocked...............

 

Thanks for spending the time to expand on the earlier posts, it's always interesting and very informative to have this kind of feedback.

"To do this, The hardware requires a minimum of 32 to 64GB RAM, 8+ core CPUs, 24+ PCIe lanes for NVME drives" - RAM, well you're there already for several years now. CPU - we have 6 Core Intel now but anything more would require a serious redesign/completely new chassis and I wonder what the real potential of this sort of hardware really is. Same for NVME support - 24+ PCIe lanes for storage is massive!!!!!

"I would like them to improve the quality of their keyboards, improve the QC of their heat sinks/fans and provide a BIOS that is not so locked down that I cannot undervolt when needed. The lack of these things changed my mind in purchasing last year.

Unfortunately, being located in the US, I don't know anyone with an XMG system, but if XMG takes the time to clean up some of these issues, then kudos to you and XMG. I appreciate that, and hope your customers do too."

Keyboards - this is pretty subjective, I'm not sure if you mean quality or functionality i.e. do they break too easilly, feel cheap or that you don't like the action of the keys?

Heatsinks - common dicussion topic. In fact, we spent a LOT of time working on this internally, taking thermal images of the heatsinks and heatpipes under different loads and in multiple systems in order to put together a complete set of data and performance so that not only could we compare how the heatsinks performance chassis model to chassis model, but also so that we could gauge the variance of multiple units of the same heatsink model. This testing wasn't just conducted to keep the information in house - if you understand.

Undervolting - this has been an option with stock BIOS on the desktop PC chassis for what must be over a year now if I'm not mistaken, it's also easilly possible on a software level such as with Intel XTU. Of course we also offer speed binned delidded CPUs and other options such as custom EC fan profiles, but we have to keep a balance in what we offer.

 

Yes, with the release of the KM series undervolting was included in the stock BIOS.

 

The successor to Ryzen R7 1700X (95W) comes as 105W chips that I can see. Something similar will also be for Intel's next chips with 8 cores. The big question is whether Clevo will continue with the same chassis (only add the 4th fans as the fan header is already put on MB) or come up with something completely new. My best guess... A refresh of same chassis with minor changes (maybe new better fans). Anything else will surprise me (in a positive direction). But it will cost. Your best guess on this? Thanks.

 

@XMG, thank you for responding. We've had exchanges before, and I hope that some of what I've said in the past was taken as constructive criticism, getting back to the right people. Regardless, you exemplify top-notch customer service, and although we have different viewpoints (reseller vs. customer), I always appreciate your presence and responses here on NBR.

The rest is some more feedback I hope can make it to the right people... (if you know what I mean).

Yes. I was hoping there would've been a redesign for an x299 type of DTR laptop.

Now, given the thermal dissipation required, I understand it would've had to been a new chassis and cooling system. And given that we'd been thru iterations of P870DM -> P870KM -> P870TM, I had hoped Clevo would've announced something along the lines of X299 that would've had the same impact on the market like when the P570WM was introduced.

Size and keys. Perhaps something's changed there, but don't the 17" laptops use the same keyboard as 15" models? With the extra space on 17" laptops, it would be nicer to have the keyboard keys, spacing, layout, etc. take advantage of the extra surface area.

Understood... :wink: I hope the information is used and makes a difference.

That is good to know as well. A BIOS/UEFI approach is best as the XTU stuff doesn't work in my case... Linux. (See Sig)

 

Dang, I sure hope so. If he was serious, that's a bit over the top. I don't mind debate and using hyperbole to make a point, but I still respect people that I disagree with. And, I have nothing but nice thoughts about XMG. I'd still require a @Prema BIOS, but I know you guys do things right with the products you sell and care a lot about your customers.

 

i hope Clevo add some AMD Graphics Option for P775DM3-G
and
an unlock BIOS from Clevo or Sager for P775DM3-G
Thanks

 

Good point, But not only AMD GPU's even we would like to see AMD CPU's as well.

 

Idle power and perf/watt still needs to improve regardless of support/development.

 

Yes, but still it can be done somehow don't you think? maybe with a complete new design. The price will be lower than Intel systems and it will be a good option for many of us. Can you help them with the design?

 

I believe the design isn't the problem, r7 1700x runs cooler.

Thing is you(clevo) require the licensing for am4 socket and the chipset contracts, which i believe AMD stated is currently "exclusive" to ASUS for gl702zc(asus crapped it this time). A delleinware guy also tweeted that they're in constant convo with AMD for first in-line Ryzen TR sales and am4 mobiles. They got the first, but lost the latter to Asus.

 

If this is the situation, then it will be a big challenge, maybe there is any workaround can be done somehow.

 

I dont think clevo would do any "workarounds" since they can get into legal issues very easily. And given the fact that ryxen is popular for its "8core config", aand intel bringing their 8cores with hell lot of better per core performance, clevo would stick to intel.

Lets be practical and not let our dreams shade reality, fact is fact.

 

Is there is anyone else did this review?

 

It's pretty difficult for me to comment on this without giving away the future Clevo roadmap, which would get me into a lot of trouble. Especially I can't comment on the Intel roadmap, but all information in the public domain at the moment is speculation. However, if you look at the Clevo roadmap from the past I think you can draw conclusions as to if it's time for a chassis refresh or not with the P775/P870 models.

Supply and demand - the costs of creating such a product and pushing it into the market, with a very limited customer base compared to other platforms makes it very difficult. The P670WM was a little bit different because of the time it launched, it was more of a product which appealed to a big market audience. Now we have 6 core CPUs in several current chassis, X299 is a much bigger jump.

Common question and topic - I don't disagree with this point of view but ultimately it's a decision taken at the top and as with everything you don't always get what you ask for!!! Depends how many people actually ask for it (I mean Clevo's customers, not end users as their information should be passed up the chain of course).

In the past, AMD GPUs have been a real pain to deal with - we occasionally have requests but we serious see very low demand. Maybe that will change in the future, it's up to AMD to up its game to be honest.

^^^Much more of a hot topic on the AMD CPU side compared to the AMD GPU demand.

It's not a question of design, cooling or anything else - we had a pretty in depth discussion about this on several other threads and it comes down to AMD supporting laptop manufacturers. If they choose to support only one manufacturer then it's a huge risk to take this kind of project on without official component manufacturer support - that's if it is even possible depending on the "exclusivity" part. Again, this needs to be driven by AMD - then the manufacturers will be able to impliment the technology that they want to in their products ;-)

 

I agree with market principles of supply and demand. I only question the analysis of the demand.

I bring this very question back in my original post - demand by a market segment - http://forum.notebookreview.com/goto/post?id=10695824#post-10695824

How many people are there like me? If I could talk to Clevo, I would ask, "Are you (Clevo) missing out?" Of the 20 to 30 professionals in my social bubble representative of a market segment world wide? Are there a key number of customers in which these products could meet their demands? And unfortunately right now this is a one-way street - a laptop which could meet the minimum requirements of software developers, CAD architects and engineers, video encoders and editors, etc. can easily fill the requirements of any gamer. However, a product solution which meets the minimum for gamers comes up short in the professional arena.

I mentioned in a previous post reseller vs. customer point of viewpoint. The statement makes it seem like there are no alternatives, but in fact, I've found out there are.

Keeping in mind this is from the 'viewpoint' of a customer, I would like to re-word your statement... You don't always get the sale, and if a company doesn't start offering what the market wants, they will shed customers too. Besides myself, @Phoenix move to MSI comes to mind.

I shared my experience. After waiting for Clevo to change (the P870* line) or offer something new, giving me what I wanted. I jumped ship. Yes, they may have said, "Well, you don't always get what you ask for." And my response was no problem, I'll find something else. You just lost the sale. And for the close knit of developer colleagues that can survive without a monitor, I'm more than happy to show them the route I've taken.

@XMG, finally, I'd like to say, please don't take this as a rant or something of a knock against you. I'm just sharing my experience and providing feedback that hopefully makes it way back to the final decision makers at Clevo. There are no hard feelings or anything of the sort against anyone here. And while, yes, I can say I'm disappointed I never saw a Clevo solution that fit my needs, I'm so happy about the discovery and performance of the final "Mighty-Mini" build, that this more offsets anything else.

 

You do have the balance of loosing a sale vs making a product that is so niche and expensive to develop it flops, see the Homer Simpson car episode. If you did not need the mobility the desktop side will always have the advantage of raw power.

 

I agree. And I wish I had the sales' figures, but my guess is the Predator 21X fits that category.

However, I'm not talking about something so 'niche and expensive to develop'. I gave the example earlier, so I'll go back to it again - the P570WM. Was the P570WM so niche and expensive to develop it flopped? And I don't have actual numbers here either, but from the love it has received here on NBR over the years, I would think it was one of Clevo's more successful products.


EDIT:

Apparently, the sales numbers for the P570WM did show something different... At least in the US - http://forum.notebookreview.com/posts/10698062/


Guess, I need to update my peeps there's no reason to wait on Clevo. Perhaps things will be different with the MSI (Tornado F7). Either that or consider moving to mobile mini-itx type builds or other suitcase type computers.

 

These offer Prema firmware. But remember HID offer more than just this (Customizing according to your needs+worldwide warranty).
https://premamod.com/partner/

 

While HIDevolution is my favorite, and many others, the most important thing is to buy from a @Prema partner shop so you can have a better Clevo with more robust, fully functional firmware and enhanced performance. HIDevolution goes the extra mile on more than that.

 

Please make sure you get a Clevo with a Prema Bios.
@Mr. Fox is going to vomit harder than @Papusan when i tell him this:

C3 C-state enabled on a BGA vomitbook causes a DROP IN GRAPHICS SCORE in 3dmark. Not Physics. Graphics score. I am not lying.
Disable C-states or use Throttlestop to limit C-state to C1, and FULL GRAPHICS score instantly.

What. The. Hell. Just get a Clevo with a Prema Bios.

 

First and foremost, the Prema BIOS, you don't ever want to consider a Clevo laptop without the Prema BIOS. Period. They are severely limited with the Clevo Cancer firmware which not only restricts you in many things, but also causes the CPU to throttle under load.

Now with HIDevolution, you get things not available at other retailers like CPU delidding for systems that take desktop class CPUs which is again, a MUST otherwise you will be running into overheating issues whether or not you are overclocking. Secondly, their build quality, thermal paste application, stress testing to ensure the laptop works great out of the box, go above and beyond other resellers IMHO.

Don't forget if you were going to buy a machine from them to email [email protected] to get your NBR discount.

Here are the Prema BIOS Benefits:

• Restores user ability to overclock or underclock the CPU
• Restores user control over CPU power settings (voltage, watts, amps) for optimal performance and/or thermal efficiency
• Restores ability to control non-turbo CPU core ratio
• Restores ability to control CPU c-states and p-states
• Restores ability to control BCLK (northbridge) and FCLK (System Agent) frequency
• Restores ability to enable Intel Speed Shift Technology functionality
• Restores ability to disable Intel Software Guard Extensions (SGX) functionality which is intended for software developers who want to use that feature and causes erratic system behavior
• Restores ability to control RSR, Watchdog Timer, ASPM, ACPI sleep and hibernation functionality
• Restores ability to control RAM timings, clock speeds and enables the utilization of XMP profiles
• Restores ability to control selection of Legacy, UEFI and CSM to install whatever operating system is desired
• Restores ability to control CPU-based DEP, AES (encryption) and Virtualization
• Restores ability to control GPU scaling, PCIe speed and power management features
• Restores control over Thunderbolt and USB 3.1 configuration
• Restores control over SATA port configuration and Intel LPM. Having the ability to disable drive ports allows exclusive control over what drive receives the BCD/boot sector, system and recovery partitions during Windows Setup and eliminates the need to physically remove non-OS drives when installing a new OS.

 

Is your question then really "I want to buy a non-Clevo laptop - are HID Evolution a good choice for this, or is their Prema Partner relationship with Clevo chassis the company's main benefit?". If so, then take a look at the customer feedback from HID here http://forum.notebookreview.com/forums/reseller-feedback-forum.1095/ because there's lots of feedback in this section of the forum, not just around the hardware but customer service feedback as well.

Advertising - depends what you mean.......

Also, this thread was heavily moderated a few days ago because it went off topic. I would start a thread in the section I linked to above, that's a better place to give and get company feedback

 

I think that is a wise decision. Clevo products generally, and those with the Prema BIOS particularly, are for the enthusiast who is looking for more than just an out of the box experience.

I would think you would be better served with, for example, an MSI GT series laptop that is a pure out of the box type experience, with great cooling with minimal fan noise, the Steelseries keyboard, a great 120Hz-3ms screen, and aluminum body. If you are looking for a good gaming rig out of the box, look no further.

 

Even without Prema. There aint other options than the big LGA boys from Clevo if you are in need for a laptop. I wouldn't look other places.

 

@Dr. AMK
Clevo profits surge 21% in 2017
https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20180328PD211.html

 

Clevo shipped 1.27 million notebooks in 2017 and achieved US$24.7 million revenue in such difficult market situation, this is really impressive.

 

That is very good news. I wonder if we can find a breakdown by model. It would be nice to know if the LGA models are selling more than the BGA, since that is the niche/monopoly Clevo has that makes them the only acceptable notebook brand left on the face of the earth.

 

Yes, but it seems it's not easy to get this breakdown, maybe the re-sellers can do.

 

"with growth driven mainly by demand from Asia Pacific"

BGA outsells LGA by a big margin - I can't back this up with data as I couldn't possible post anything in public, you'll just have to take my word for it - or not. The only way you'll get a breakdown by model is if it's leaked, equally I would be very surprised if any SI or reseller would give exact or even percentage breakdown for fear of exposing their sales volume to the market and competitors.

 

- and their retail and real estate operations.

Exactly...unfortunately it is confidential, proprietary information.

 

If I remember correctly in the past someone talked here about something like 1 lga system sold for 6/7 bga systems sold. Is that possible?

I was really curious about a comparison N950KP6/N950TP6 vs N850HP6 in terms of sales volume because these systems have comparable specs and prices. LGAs sales volumes are not so low if clevo continues proposing w6xx/n9xx/nb5x IMO
no competitors at the moment for P7xxs and P8xxs because other OEMs/ODMs use bga cpus and new 8750/8850/8950hk are not be released. That could explain something in terms of sales volume?

 

Clevo expects notebook shipments to rise 20% in 2018
Aaron Lee, Taipei; Joseph Tsai, DIGITIMES
Monday 2 April 2018
Clevo expects its notebook shipments to reach 1.52 million units in 2018, up from 2017's 1.27 million units, driven mainly by demand for gaming models and orders from emerging markets, according to company's notebook business president Yi-Lung Chien (transliterated from Chinese).

As for the recent rising costs created by component shortages, Chien noted that the company has been negotiating with its clients since the first quarter of 2018, looking to pass part of the increased costs to them; however, the shortages are unlikely to ease in the short term, especially for RAM chips used on graphics cards.

Chien attributed the component shortages mainly to increasing demand from the automotive electronics industry. Currently, graphics card RAM prices are rising every month with Samsung Electronics reportedly planning to raise its quotes by 40% in 2018.

Solid state drive (SSD) prices were stabilized in the first quarter and are expected to decline slowly in the second quarter as many suppliers are in the process of upgrading their production lines to use new manufacturing process technology.

Meanwhile, Clevo has seen clear signs of recovery in the procurement sectors in emerging markets as the governments in India, Mexico, Brazil and Russia have recently released new bidding rojects.

As for the gaming market, demand from China has the strongest growth, while its niche products such as workstations have also seen increased shipments lately.

Clevo shipped 360,000 notebooks in the first quarter of 2018, up 13% on year, driven mainly by demand from the markets in Asia Pacific. In 2017, the company's notebook shipments from the region went up 14% on year and are expected to grow another double-digit rate in 2018.

For the second quarter, Clevo expects its shipments to remain strong thanks to the releases of Intel's new Coffee Lake processors in April.

 

With base prices especially for memory it's always going to put pressure on.

 

Yes you are right, it's not only the memory even other components like SSD/HDD and GPU's. We have to wait and see.

 

Memory covers GDDR and NAND since it's all from the same fabs.

 

Crazy news, thanks for sharing this, always interesting to read up on thier market share.

 

Clevo's continue to be improved, even if at times they are last to adopt things like special keyboards, they usually eventually offer whatever the usual things are to be found in gaming laptops. They want to make money, I think, obviously, and compete against some larger more advertised in america laptops.

 

Per key backlighting for instance in some of the upcoming models.

 

Are they going to change the keyboard design and keys spacing?

 

I believe it's just an improvement over functions with per key lighting and macros rather than design.

 

Personally per key backlighting It is useless gimmick for me... Better give mechanical KB to PA series...

 

I contacted one of the Directors - Clevo CO. in Taiwan, he is one of my LinkedIn connections, and asked him about the last updated percentage for LGA/BGA CPU's sales and this is his reply:
"Hi Ahmed, I no clear number of CPU BGA/LGA sales percentages in hand, but refer to March Sales, should be ~ 6% CPU LGA. Best regards, ######"

 

Doesn't surprise me all that much. Most kids usually prefer to eat the rubbish from McDonald's rather than going out for a nice juicy steak. It's a cheap and quick way to not feel hungry, but not healthy or nutritious.

 

I was trying to get the 2017 percentage, the %6 LGA is only for March 2018, I think we can use it as an indicator, but maybe it's not reflecting the real percentage for 2017 and the 1st 2018 quarter in total.
I'll try to get more information.

 

Would be nice to know that if they will provide it. Thanks for asking about it.

 

I sent the link to this thread to some of Clevo staff, hope that they can contribute by themselves.

 

to be clear that 1 lga laptop for 6 bga laptops was referred to a comparison P7xx vs P6xx. that 6% is referred to the total amount of Clevo's BGAs laptops so not only P6xx