Feedback to Clevo R&D Team: What's missing or broken in your Skylake laptops?

Yeah - but the funny part is that they are all excited but no one actually buys them - Ati and Nvidia would need their shares to close 50-50 so they are in full blown competition.

 

Just needs to be enough to take a chunk out of their sales, not a full 50/50 rivalry. That said it would be pretty cool if it was that close.

 

It was cool when it was, back when you had two even companies in both markets it was a great time for innovation.

 

That it was, and I'm definitely on board with a GPU performance/cost arms race, but I'm willing to settle for the threat of a possible arms race encouraging NVidia to innovate more.

 

The lack of flexibility in the BIOS is a bit annoying; I do not have the Prema capability on mine. I would like a bit more control over being able to adjust things relating to overclocking (undervolting, default settings, etc..).

Maybe part of the problem is that Prema is still not taken seriously as a contender by Clevo? I know there are licensing concerns, manufacturer/builder warranty questions, availability, etc.. regarding something that does not come from the big name in BIOS.

I take it that Prema is one guy working out of his home to develop the BIOS? While it can be the greatest thing in the world that is still a potential bottleneck for any manufacturer to be staking a large part of their business upon him still doing the work or the risk of him being hit by a truck. I kicked some money his way through a Paypal donation just in appreciation for the work that he has done. Even if he does come out with a BIOS release that helps me directly I still may not be able to use it if it compromises my 3 year warranty.

Question about that, I know that there are warranty considerations if a machine goes back to a builder with a BIOS that is non-standard. If the machine is still bootable isn't it possible to roll the BIOS back to what was originally installed prior to sending it in for servicing? Also there have been a few court cases where someone tried to void a warranty on an item for modifications that had nothing at all to do with the problem that was found. In several of those the warranties were upheld as still being valid.

(BTW, the "hit by a truck" thing does happen. One time I had trained up a woman to take my old position at an engineering firm so I could accept a promotion. A few weeks later she was drunk driving late at night and did get "hit by a truck". I had to temporarily do both jobs while I trained another replacement.)

 

IIRC Clevo doesn't really care about Prema mod, it's up to companies further down the chain that are responsible for actual building/servicing of the end product. So one retailer will be fine with it, but another who sells the same basic model may not.

 

I've fully enjoyed my NP8153 and recently got to play around with an NP5855.

One thing I wish could be different deals with the aesthetics. I wish the status lights and power on light would adjust with the chromatic schemes. I prefer a white-lit keyboard, and so I have a blue power button, white keyboard, and green activity lights.

While much cheaper, I actually liked how the 5855 had a single white color scheme that included the power button light. However, the indicator lights were still green.

It's not a big deal, and some would say I'm incredibly picky, but I felt like dropping in my wish list item Thanks for making incredible laptops.

 

I think all status lights being white/on unlit/off red/problem and then the other case lights being customizable would be ideal personally.

 

Similar to the NP9873 lights? I suppose that could look nice.

 

I think that's the one I had in mind, though it would also be nice to fully customize operating/warning lights too.

 

As far as the law is concerned, in Europe anyway, a manufacturer can only legally void the warranty on a product if the user or a third party has carried work out which has directly affected the performance of said product. With PCs and laptops, the consumer is protected under law in what is sometimes refered to as the "off the shelf" rule i.e. if you add a component which is freely available on the market such as a HDD or memory, the seller can't void the warranty UNLESS that work had a direct impact on the performance of the product. The manufacturer could argue that if the "void if broken" seal is broken then the warranty is broken, in some instances this is true but in others it's not. If a company's Terms and Conditions state to the contuary, it is classed as unfair contract terms because they would (in an applicable situation) go against either the equivalent of the Sale Of Goods Act or be a breach of the consumers statutory rights.

With regards to Prema, he can speak best about this and I don't want to put words into anyone's mouth. The main issue is not what Prema adds as such, it's what Clevo locks down before they make their BIOS and EC available. You can argue all day how the decision process works, but Clevo lock down most settings - they are there, just not accessible unless "hacked" and I use that term loosely.

There are some things that Prema has added and changed, which have a definite positive effect and are things that Clevo haven't changed / or changed to the same level. The thing is Clevo, like all ODMs, fully understand their hardware but they also understand how they want people to control it and how they feel that they wish to manage certain areas.

Btw you can undervolt in several stock Clevo BIOS, we have custom fan profiles in several XMG EC files etc etc and there are several tools you can use to manage settings such as under and over volting, multiplier control and so on - it's just that this and some other benefits aren't available at BIOS level with the stock options.

I'm sure that you've seen Phoenix's posts listing all the benefits, I wouldn't question or disagree with these at all - just providing a second point of view!

 

It's similar in the US, adding hardware only voids your warranty in many cases if the hardware affects the system performance or actually damages it (or you damage it during the install). Using a non-approved BIOS can void the warranty if you somehow brick the computer in the process, but generally they'll still cover hardware even with a custom BIOS as long as it's provable the BIOS didn't cause it.

 

The problem is more that most people don't know those stickers on the botton are illegal. Additionally, some companies will turn you down and there is nothing you can do without pressing legal charges which they know is too much effort for most people.

@Tanner@XoticPC You guys actually stunned me keeping my warranty after I upgraded my 980m by dremeling the heatsink of my GT60.

 

Basically if a particular part is undamaged, you can usually get it serviced regardless of the state of the rest of the computer. This sometimes takes a lot of begging/pleading with the repair center though.

 

Yes, that looks pretty sharp.

 

It's always heartening to see a clued-in warrantor like Xotic... Now if only you could get the Motorolas and Samsungs of the world to understand their f-cking obligations under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, we enthusiast consumers would live in a better world.

The FTC has repeatedly commented on its interpretation of the MMWA's tying prohibition, originally in 15 USC 2302 (linked above). Their final decisions are codified in 16 CFR 700.10, which is extremely clear:

See RAM, storage, etc. for PCs... and custom software for Android phones. No, Samsung and Motorola, that custom ROM your customer installed does not mean you can deny him/her warranty service on the defective headphone jack your factory crapped out.

I truly hope there's a massive class action against these flagrant federal law violators at some point.

Xotic and others, thank you for being fair - and law-abiding.

 

In some cases, maybe a lot, even, it's fair to assume that there's some footwork afoul to avoid warranty service. Unfortunately, dishonesty goes both ways.

 

Sure. As frustrated as I am with the likes of Samsung and Motorola for trying to snake out of warranties based on completely unrelated, benign software modifications, I'm also keenly aware that end customers will do massively stupid things with what they own. Those people ruin it for the rest of us, and I have a special distaste for them when they make false warranty claims. I've seen it bragged about on other forums.

I'm certain you guys at Prostar are exceedingly fair too. My gripes aren't with any Clevo resellers, but the rest of the industry, who needs to learn from them. A warrantor has every right to deny a claim when the customer caused the issue (did your GPU cook itself because you did a craptastic repaste job? no free replacement for you, Dirty Joe User). What I can't stand is when that's used as a crutch, or spurious (IMO - IANAL - illegal) claims are made to duck responsibility. Dishonesty does go both ways, and what I want is more of the opposite. Unfortunately that means the big boys (the warrantors, specifically the Samsung/Motos of the world - and let's not forget Apple!) will have to change first. The real-world power balance is tipped way in their favor.

 

You can also get an idea on how much a company really wants you doing maintenance yourself by looking at how easy they make upgrades and just basic tasks like cleaning the heatsinks.

 

I have an extremely difficult time believing this is truly accurate of Clevo, or any other ODM for that matter. I think they understand far less than they would like us to believe and I cannot extend benefit of doubt based on the examples of incompetence we see on a frequent and ongoing basis. If it is true that they fully understand their hardware, then one can only conclude that they simply don't care that their products are defective off the shelf. One excellent example for Clevo is their history of piss-poor quality control on heat sinks that do not fit correctly. Not to single out Clevo, since they are the only ODM that still offers alternatives to castrated turdbooks (sole exception being the Tornado F5). Almost all ODMs have one or more areas where their design defects, half-assed QC and lack of regard for end-user experience sticks out like a sore thumb.

I think the root of the matter is that it costs more to make consistently high quality products and they (most ODMs) prefer to spend less on R&D and let customers sort out their messes. Unfortunately, some ODMs go the extra mile on customer-hate by giving themselves the liberty to play their lame excuse card for the warranty being arbitrarily voided by end-user tampering.

And, to be completely fair (and offer balance to the above) this is a great example of something we all love about Clevo.

 

@Mr. Fox I think you know exactly what I mean, I specifically said that they fully understand their hardware in the context of the sentence. In this case we're talking about BIOS, nothing else.


I speak to numerous ODMs on a daily basis, I can tell everyone here quite categorically that they understand their hardware. That's exactly my point in the sentence you quoted me, we may not like it and we may feel that they aren't giving us what we want or even that they're are giving us the hardware that we want but not close to being optimised. These are quite different points, there are a huge number of factors in the design, R&D, budget, timeframe etc etc which affect how the products come out at launch.


If it is true that they do understand their hardware, then "one can only conclude that they simply don't care that their products are defective off the shelf" is not the only conclusion available at all. Are we automatically ruling out time restrictions, budget concerns, being a tier 2 rather than tier 1 ODM......


I’ve been dealing directly with ODMs like Clevo, MSI, Gigabyte and others for over 10 years. I completely agree with some of your points and at times it's incredibly infuriating. You're correct about heatsinks (though Clevo don't actually make their own heatsinks), we could add a hundred other things to that list.

We’re both in complete agreement with the problems, all I am doing is trying to put the other side of the story across.


Plus, I really have no idea how BGA laptops enters this conversation in the slightest.......

 

Heatsinks should definitely be their #1 priority... and fast!

A close work colleague is looking for an beast of a laptop but I simply can't recommend him a flagship Clevo solely because the heatsink ruins the functionality of the laptop for the average user not willing to take matters into their own hands.

Just about every DM3 owner on these forums has run into problems due to unacceptable HS contact. People walk away thinking these machines are unnaturally loud, which is more a symptom of the problem if left unaddressed

Nothing short of copper shim seems to give these systems the intended results. Something which doesn't bother me, but scares away most other people not prepared/morally opposed to have to do this on a brand new $3000+ machine.

We all realise deadlines and timeframes exist, but this is universal to all manufacturers in the game. When do the big boy pants go on and the excuses stop I wonder? (that's not directed at you)
From what I've read these issues have been around for long enough for them to be rectified.

 

In other words, understanding on paper is one thing, executing in practical and real-world conditions (e.g. needing profits or not making losses, needing to release at certain timeframe) is another? I can tell how ODMs have it hard at times, maybe this is why Apple wants to do all the hardware under its hood in the future to have more control?

 

Ryzen is what's missing! LOL

 

Yes that's exactly my point.

 

So, you're going to pair an NVIDIA GPU with an AMD CPU, or compromise on a lackluster GPU just so you can have a Ryzen CPU? This is only a question, not an argument, so please accept it as such.

AMD (so far) doesn't make a 1080 killer (that runs as good stock and overclocks better) and it would take that plus Ryzen before I would be interested in looking at AMD as a potential solution to my computing needs.

If they do release a 1080 killer GPU that runs faster, equally stable, overclocks better, and doesn't have an abbreviated life span, then I will definitely be taking a closer look.

 

It's about money as well. I for one don't feel like shelling 2000 USD on a laptop that has everything soldered on. If AMD gives me the same performance or better at the same price point, I would go with AMD.

 

That could definitely be the icing on my cake... same performance (or better) for less money is a huge win. The same performance or better part remains to be seen, with a somewhat larger question mark over the GPU than for Ryzen. I don't want to compromise that on the CPU or GPU part of the system, but having the best GPU may not be a priority for all users. Some are very content with a minimum of 60 FPS gaming, and that should not be too difficult for them to pull off even if it doesn't result in a win in the graphics performance area.

 

It's early days yet but I do hope it works out for AMD I know I may have seemed negative on a few fronts but the market could do with some fresh air.

 

If they offer Ryzen with a GTX 11 gpu then all good.

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk

 

The mix and match issues are a thing of the past. They fixed all those conflicts I think about a decade ago. At least on the desktops. Now a days the same motherboards support Crossfire and SLI.
But looking at how things are, the Intel 6/8 cores seem to have hard to justify costs, specially if Ryzens real world performance is what they are saying it is. Specially at that price point.

 

You need to be Nvidia certified for SLI still but Crossfire will work on any motherboard with 2 slots.

 

This means Nvidia milk more money?
If so, one more reason we should hope AMD can have success.

 

Nvidia always gets their cut

 

Apart from it simply being an official channel and that Nvidia developed and own SLI, one of the other reasons is that if a laptop runs SLI and it doesn't work properly then this reflects badly on Nvidia. Think what you will about Nvidia, but it's exactly the same as most other things work in business.

 

They should lend a hand to game developers then too. They've been dropping the ball with SLI consistently to the point I'm over with it for anything but number chasing.

 

They do. On most every title that requests it. You don't just make a great SLI title without getting their help. Devs just do not care, period. Where nVidia needs to improve is SLI's base technology itself. XDMA style inter-gpu communication, improving the scaling defaults, re-introducing 3-way SLI at least, etc. The easier the tech is and the more tolerant of render tech like TAA (which needs previous frame data to work well; added a solid +20% util on my CPU for turning it on in BF1 on my 780Ms for little visual benefit) SLI is, the more likely we see more of it

Sent from my OnePlus 1 using a coconut

 

It's also got more complicated with DX12, it hands a lot of responsibility with the game developer and Nvidia can't just patch it in the drivers as they are not as involved as they were in the process.

 

Well it's more like that's a possibility... DX12 in most titles works like DX11 does. They let the driver handle optimizations and the API is used to load-balance the CPU and use less CPU overall. Few devs actually do any console-type optimization or make use of other things in the API.

As it stands right now with available games; only Rise of the Tomb Raider is any point to use DX12 over 11 in for nVidia. A couple more for AMD because it removes their DX11 driver CPU overhead, but not that much.

I just feel if devs had the time, money, and/or caring to do the hard work to make DX12/Vulkan shine, we wouldn't be getting lazy ways out like physics tied to framerate or "easy" render tech that is afr unfriendly with no extra real benefit in optimization or visuals vs afr-friendly tech.

Maybe by 2020 or so we'll see it really shining if it becomes commonplace. But that was my original prediction since I heard about DX12 and since I heard it required W10.

Sent from my OnePlus 1 using a coconut

 

I really wish Micro$lop and their DX12 feces would just hurry up and fail and get it over with and stop wasting our time. As a company, they haven't really managed to do much of anything right after Windows 7. A small accidental win here or there, but really nothing to give a rat's ass about, especially with W10 and DX12. Things would be so much better if they said to heck with trying to do anything with Windows gaming and let another API (Vulkan) take over and do it right. And, I wish they would also scrap the UWA filth as a gaming platform. There is simply no need for it. Its only purpose for existance is an effort to create another monopoly for the Redmond Mafia.

 

I almost feel DX12 took things too far the other way than before and there is a balance to find.

 

It was hyped up for its potential (and still is) but nobody's taking advantage. It's like a kind of buzzword like 4K. People want want want not realizing that at present nobody's making it worth it.

I'm not saying it can't be good, but right now we'd be absolutely perfectly fine without it.

 

That or engines that can make it easy to take advantage of it and lead the developers down efficient paths.

 

Actually DX12 has a faster uptake by game releases second only to DX11. The reason it's not taking off even faster is because developers don't want to put extra rescources into titles in order to support DX12 unless they have to. It brings advantages to developers and the finished product, but only really at the ultra top end.

It's therefore not as bad as people might think and many parties have an effect on how quickly DX12 is taken up.

 

GDC 2017 | Is DirectX 12 worth it? A game developer gives us some insights

 

The final answer is that it will heavily depend on the engine used and many other variables. For some games, yes while for other games not really.

The engine designer says if it works with DX12 or not really. Game devs don't usually decide this, they mainly decide what engine they use and that is also quite variable on many things.

Big game companies are in the same group as well, they don't decide what engine they use based on DX12 or not, they decide based on multiple other factors, and when they actually design an engine they care about other things. If DX12 stays a windows only thing then it is also something to take into account, some games will want to run on both win, linux, max, consoles, etc.

 

See also "Microsoft’s latest operating system is losing ground on Steam, where users appear to be moving back to Windows 7"

 

Hard to say if that's the case without more stats from Valve. Namely how many new Steam users appear in that period.

Since all of the percentages are simply a share of the total install base, the increase in %age of Win7 users could simply be a jump in new Win7 users and not necessarily a shift from one group to the other.

One example I can think of, is a lot of GRID/Cloud instances are deployed on a Win7 base rather than Win10 due to deployment stability from a management/enterprise perspective. Win7 has yet to be completely killed off in enterprise deployments and cloud gaming appears to be rising in popularity so we may actually see it sway a bit.

 

THIS !

 

according to steam mainstream gamers are using GTX750ti's (read that somewhere) . . . I was like yeah right, for what, LOL and WOW maybe...