Sager 8800 Update

Mmm, ok. What's your source for Armina as an ODM? I can't find anything

 

Keep in perspective folks.

The sheer fact they offer the ability to upgrade the mother board to accomodate NEW technology is a perfect example of how it IS IN FACT upgradeable. Most manufacturers do NOT offer this as an option to accomodate NEW technology. They make you buy the whole damn system again and again and again.

Believe it or not a mother board is just another component in a computer. You can't even tell me it is the most important part. Try running your system without a processor, or ram , or even a GRAPHICS card.

Think about the computer you had 10 years ago and how much it has changed. Technology changes daily. If a current interface or design can't support or embrace newer more advanced technology, it is redesigned so that it can.

Be upset with yourself for having an addiction that changes faster than your wallet can accomodate.

 

I'm sorry man I misspelled it Alienware is using Arima. The m9700 is the Arima W830-DA and the m9750 is the Arima W835-DI.

 

Er the BIOS is the most important part of your computer believe it or not. Without it you can't do anything. With a BIOS you can at least get into the BIOS

BIOS = heart
CPU = brain
GFX = eyes
etc

 

if i tell you to jump would you ask me how high?

 

Nah, I would probably just smack you with a loaf of rye bread.

 

i would counter that with a loaf of hearty wheat bread.

 

In other words, Alienware is in precisely the same position Clevo is - current Alienware motherboards cannot support the 8800M either, so instead of being able to just chuck that puppy into existing inventory and ship it, they've had to upgrade the motherboard and, as a result, will not actually be shipping any new 8800M systems until January of '08.

However, not being as bleeding-edge as Clevo, Alienware apparently decided to sit back and not commission a motherboard revision to support the new quadcores as soon as they became available. One wonders how many other innovations Alienware will just sit on until others have given it a go first.

 

Actually Shyster that's not a true statement. They don't know (Alienware owners that is) whether or not the m9750 will be able to switch to the 8800GTX from the 7950GTX, without a motherboard upgrade. They are waiting on an answer from Alienware.

Just wanted to clear that up...at the moment it's up in the air. There will be some mad Alienware owners though if a motherboard revision is required, lol.

 

All clarification gratefully accepted. I suspect, however, that they might be able to make a guess by checking to see whether or not their display panels are EDID or non-EDID, and whether or not their system boards provide support for EDID display panels.

According to Justin at xoticpc, posted here: http://forum.notebookreview.com/showpost.php?p=2711801&postcount=102 , Nvidia decided to assemble the 8800M modules itself and ship them to the ODMs for only a limited amount of further customization, and in doing so only provided support for EDID-type display panels, notwithstanding that the MXM thermal electromechanical specifications released by Nvidia as late as November of 2007 appear to state that system board support for EDID displays is optional (if you check on page 47 of version 2.1A of the specs, at pins 220 and 222, which provide the signals for DDCC_CLK and DDCC_DAT and are used with EDID displays, you will see that system board support is listed as being optional).

Given that, I would suspect that current Alienware owners could get a better idea of whether or not their systems will support an upgrade to the 8800M by checking to see if their display panels are EDID, and whether their system boards support EDID. I did a quick look-see on Wikipedia, and the following page appears to have some links to utilities (freeware as well as for-pay) that will allow one to read the EDID info for one's display; the page is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDID

Also, to avoid the accusation of being obscurantist or pedantic, EDID, as I discovered from the Wiki page, means Extended Display Identification Data. The current Nvidia MXM specifications can be downloaded from this page: http://www.nvidia.com/page/mxm.html

 

Not really I don't take pleasure in other peoples pain, but yea I know what you mean, this blows.

 

To stay on the up-and-up, all it takes is green. And for a system as expensive as the 9260 initially, $1500 for an upgrade to the 88 is next to peanuts. (Not for me, and I hate it) But we're all just going to have to wait back and see for the official word as for 88 SLI capability, along with MoBo upgrades, and their prices.

 

Thanks Shyster1, I updated my post in the alienware section with your info. Hopefully it will help them figure out if they will need a new motherboard or not. I'm very glad that your willing to dig so far for the info. It definately helps out!

 

damn good info! if you don't mind, i am going to use this and spread it to other forums and hope to get some answers as i am dying to get an m9750 but it needs to support the 8800 cards.

 

This may be a bit off topic here in the Sager forum, but I can confirm that Alienware will NOT be issuing a motherboard upgrade for the m9750. Also, we have no confirmation as to what chassis the new m15x and m17x will be based on. Mind you, that's not to say that the m9750 will not support the 8800's, but rather that IF the current mobo does not support the 8800's, then the m9750 owners are SOL as they will be "focusing on the new products" from this point forward.

 

Some of the Penryn chips will be compatible with the current Santa Rosa chipset just like with the latest chip was. If you scroll down to the moblie chips everything that runs at a FSB of 800Mhz with "socket P" design should be compatible with the current motherboard technology with a BIOS update. Everything you see at the 1066 Mhz FSB will be released with the next chipset revision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_future_Intel_Core_2_microprocessors

 

ok we are getting somewhere regarding the alienware m9750. someone did a test using the software and this was his comment.

this indicates it is compatible with the 8800m! i am waiting on more replies.

 

Woah the Core 2 Duo T9300 look very nice!

 

"The sheer fact they offer the ability to upgrade the mother board to accomodate NEW technology is a perfect example of how it IS IN FACT upgradeable."

What if to keep it "upgradable" it cost you every year the same as buying a new one every year? That is more or less what we are talking about here. Would you say it is still upgradable? That is the direction this all thing is taking.

Read my post here http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=189523&page=11.

Maybe I'm totally wrong but people have to prove it with clear facts and numbers/costs on the table.

Trance
PS: Everything in business is a matter of having the green. Within this context the stament is a TAUTOLOGY. But a tautology AND something else is something else.

 

At this time it is unknown as final street dates and true street spec are still unclear. So far Intel has stated the P965 chipset will not be supported. I know that we have made it supporting 1333FSB but 45nm is a different ball game.

 

If even if with "almost equal ball games" Clevo motherboards simply have not been able to support new tech you can imagine what will happen when a new CPU architecture get's in.

"To stay on the up-and-up, all it takes is green. And for a system as expensive as the 9260 initially, $1500 for an upgrade to the 88 is next to peanuts"

I think your are missing the point really Akilae. Let's see ... people that have bought the first d900c and to upgrade the mobo to get Quads just 2 months ago. That probably have cost them about $600. Now a couple of months later we supposedly have a new motherboard out to get support for the 8800M GTX ... another $1200. Later (maybe a couple of months who knows another motherboard revision to support Quads at 45nm (another $1000?). Next another $1000 to support the 8950GTX or the 9000Ms etc etc. If you follow the "upgradades" available you had payed 2 times the cost of one. Why not just buy one now and then in an year buy another one ... "oh becouse that is too expensive" ....

Believe me, people of course want the oppotunity to buy better tech, and being upgradable should actually lower the cost (same base, upgrade components), that is what people expect when they read the word, not otherwise.

I'm thinking that people that got their with two Go7950GTX in the begining should actually skip this one and wait for the 45nms motherboard replacement and get a new Quad CPU and the Video Card just once. Better still sell yours now $750 cheaper and buy a new one (you can always say it is upgradeable as people seam to believe it lololol).

Trance

 

Just to share some concerns:

"There is an interesting story that we heard more than once as it says that Intel „forgot“ to send the latest Penryn based Yorkfield samples to Nvidia and made some tweaks that made this CPU incompatible with the existing 680i and upcoming 780i motherboards. You probably heard before that Nforce 680i boards have problems with QX9650 CPUs and that they won’t work together.

When Nvidia got the samples, they learned that they will have to re-spin the chipset to make it work with upcoming quad core Yorkfield generation and earned itself a delay.

The launch had to be pushed for the very late December as it takes time to re-spin and fix the chipset but luckily all the 780i boards should work with Intel's 45 nanometre generation.

We are not sure if Nvidia can fix Nforce 680i and bring the support for Penryn to this chipset."

http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4446&Itemid=37

Sounds similar? Upseting but at least the Nfoce 680i based motherboards have been around for more then a couple of months.

Trance

 

Quick question, since I haven't had time to actually play with any of the utilities myself - does your correspondent know (or can s/he determine) whether the EDID info came from the LCD itself, or from the system BIOS? My (very limited) understanding of the MXM v.2.1 software specification is that, if the system uses a non-EDID LCD (i.e., an LCD that does not provide its own EDID data), then the system vendor must provide the same EDID-type data the videocard is expecting from within the system BIOS or on a separate ROM, and must pass a pointer to that data to the videocard at POST.

Thus, since the system must, in any event, provide the videocard with EDID-type data, I would want to make sure that any software utility that read off the EDID data could discriminate between data provided directly by the LCD, and data provided by the system BIOS for a non-EDID LCD.

However, I will say that it is promising if your correspondent found a good set of EDID data that was detailed enough to provide the exact version and revision number of the VESA EDID standard it was based on.

 

Well, I do agree with you, but it comes down to being smart about your upgrades really. If you had purchased the 9260 and then 2 months later upgraded the mobo to the quad (9261) this would have been a waste of money. The benefits of the Q6600/@6700 is not enough to go through the hassel of the upgrade and even the sales rep at Sager told me it is not worth it and there is no real performance increase.

Sager is not telling people to jump on every upgrade they offer. IMO, this next upgrade better include the support of the Penryn chips, if it wont I will not upgrade till the mobo does. And if you are willing to take the chance then don't complain if it doesnt. It really is not a big deal to upgrade the mobo for a couple hundred $$, not sure why everyone is doing so much complaining. I consider the mobo just a small price to pay to be able to upgrade these machines. It is just like a desktop machine almost always you have to replace the mobo to upgrade major components.

Sager and Clevo are not misleading people, the machine is upgradable. So what, you have to spend a couple of hundred $$ more to upgrade to the 8800M GTX. Just the 8800M GTX SLI alone is going to be between $1400 and $1700 depending where you are, and everyone is getting worked up about the extra cost for the mobo, that doesnt make sense. I would understand if the mobo was $1000 but it's not and according to Justin, Sager is going to give us a deal, what more do people want?

And the last thing I want to do is sell my machine and have to go through the agony of reloading all my software everytime I buy a new notebook, the upgrade option that Sager and Clevo are offering is perfect for a person like me. I get the option to upgrade without the hassel of buying a complete new system, I am sure there are alot of people out there that are in the same boat I am.


"Better still sell yours now $750 cheaper and buy a new one (you can always say it is upgradeable as people seam to believe it lololol)" Better yet just don't purchase a computer, if you think this way. Computer technology changes so fast, YOU WILL NEVER KEEP UP, unless you have the money, and if you don't you should get a new hobby.

 

I would argue that having to swap a motherboard to put in a new video card is not what most people would call "upgradeable". As I said before, Sager and Clevo should make it clear in their advertising that any upgrade will probably require a new motherboard and will require sending the notebook back to the seller for installation.

 

OK this is just silly, you have the option to UPGRADE to new technology for $200 - $500 (Sager will give us a deal) plus the cost of GPU. And you are saying that the machine is not upgradable, what are you talking about.

You would have to send the machine in to get the cards changed anyways, unless you are willing to void your warranty if anything went wrong. Sager has said that the machine is upgradable, which it is. They dont need to put in their adverts that other components might need to be upgraded, thats just common sense if you know anything about hardware.

 

Imagine if desktop computers worked on the same principle, having to put in a new motherboard when changing video cards - would you find that acceptable ? And yes, I was planning to install the cards myself - in fact Clevo's manual includes instructions on how to install new cards.

My point is, when someone makes a notebook and makes a claim that is upgradable, the customer should be able to expect that certain parts can be replaced easily and cheaply. It is not fair to make such a claim and then have it invalidated only 2 months after a notebooks is released.

What serious manufactor goes through three motherboard revisions in 4 months ? I work in the computer industry, and I have never heard of such a case before. Frankly if my company was a Clevo reseller we would no longer sell their products after this.

Just to add that this is in no way a complaint against Xotic or other resellers - I am sure they do not like this situation any better than customers.

 

I can see your point, but how many other Notebook sellers would let you even upgrade your Motherboard and graphics card? I really can't think of many. Another thing you might wanna think about is that asus pretty much did the same thing. People all ready getting their hopes up with a c90 thinking they will be able to upgrade to a 9600m next year. To be honest I don't see it happening

 

I really dont see your point, this is new to everyone (notebooks being upgradable) and your wanting this new concept to be easier and cheaper than upgrading a desktop, that is just nonsense. Be happy that we are now having optionts to UPGRADE notebooks at a premium of $200 - $500 for a mobo. The 8800M GTX is similar in cost to the desktop counter part when it was released, so all your paying extra for is the MOBO which Sager has indicated they will give a deal on.

This is just not true and you are being way to demanding "the customer should be able to expect that certain parts can be replaced easily and cheaply. It is not fair to make such a claim and then have it invalidated only 2 months after a notebooks is released." they never said that it would be cheap and replaced easily

 

You guys think it will be a big deal to replace the motherboard yourself if I have a D901C? I've never really opened notebooks, but I am very comfortable building my own desktops and upgrading them.

I am a bit worried about working in my notebook, the limited space, messing with the LCD connection, other connections, it will all be new territory for me.

Right now, I still I have the option to have them take the notebook back and pay restocking fee. You guys think that better than wait for a new notebook mobo and doing it myself?

 

I would wait a couple of weeks. You will be able to get all of the upgrades and not have to worry about upgrading yourself.

 

Why is wanting to have a reasonable upgrade option a nonsense ? There is no technical reason for that, it is purely down to nVidia and notebook makers not agreeing a clear standard for video cards, something that has existed for many years on the desktop. And again I say that most people do not understand the word "upgrade" as "having to buy and replace your motherboard before you can put a new part in". All I am saying is that Clevo and Sager should state that clearly in their advertising.

 

forcing you to spend $500+ for a new mobo for every upgrade does not constitute as upgradeable. get your heads out of your butts!

i have taken the D900 apart and replaced the motherboard several times and i can tell you it was 10 times the difficulty of a desktop system. laptops are no joke. they are small and you must be comfortable working with micro parts and micro screws and 300 pieces scattered everywhere once it is taken apart. you must note where each part and each screw goes if this is your first attempt. even if you note the parts you will forget where this went and where that goes and get a little scared but it is doable if you have fully built desktop systems from scratch before as that experience does help.

i highly recommend that if you still are within the return period of your D900 to return it and order the new one with the 8800m. it may be cheaper absorbing the restocking fee rather then paying for mobo swaps. i would also fight any restocking fee with these D900 as they have flat out not held their end of the bargain. MXM IV?...pfft, ment nothing!

 

^^^^ agreed

 

The problem is your assumtions are not reasonable. Dont buy a DTR, stick with a desktop. Obiously you were assuming things that you should not have. Save yourself the greif and stick with a desktop.

 

To me it seems that everyone is forgetting the target audience with the upgrades too. For example, if you purchased an np9261 with the basic specs say for around $2500-3000 you are sure to have more room for "upgrades" later on. That third hard drive or go from 7950s to 8700s perhaps and so on. The upgrade factor is pretty limited to the scope of available or near available hardware. It is pretty unrealistic to think they designed these things to upgrade to the newest items that come out even if it just comes out around the corner.

I personally have always felt that the upgrade idea for laptops is for those that want a really nice laptop but cannot afford to make it all they can make it from the start. So you buy it with one drive and one video card and the smallest processor to start. Later you think "Hmmm. I think I'll upgrade and get two more hard drives and another video card and the best cpu it is *listed* to handle." To me, that is what the term "upgrade" applies too. Not to be able to upgrade to whatever comes out next.

Just my two cents

 

Don't buy a DTR then, stick with a desktop if you want to upgrade easily. Save everyone the pain of all the whinning, just go with a desktop, much easier, and cheaper.

They are not forcing you to do anything.

You don't know the mobo is going to be $500

 

Agree, and to add (ram)

 

RAM too Another quick point, a lot of other companies cannot upgrade anything save for maybe ram and a hard drive so we should appreciate that with most clevo models we can upgrade parts, add new parts and so on. Thats what I was getting at as well Sorry tired...not sure if all of this is making sense lol

 

Maybe Clevo should put that in their advertising as well ? Advice to customers: go buy a desktop.

 

Me I would just pay the upgrade cost at this point. The real complaint is the fact that every 2 months new technology is coming and notebook users want that made available without having to send their unit in for a new motherboard. I just bought mine with the expectations of being able to drop in new video cards like most here. But even with all the work with Nvidia a spec was changed at the last minute that has affected the notebook world again. MXM has been sold to the community as the equivelent of PCI or even AGP standard for video cards and has just not worked that way for the end users.

If you send you laptop and pay the restocking fee and wait for funds to order a new one that already has the 8800's you will be coming out about the same in the end. Maybe you can save 100$ but then again you will be without your laptop for a few extra weeks.

 

Most of us understand that MXM is new technology and so is DX10. So I fully understood that the word upgrade would be limited.

The 9260 can be UPGRADE to newer hardware without a mobo change, ex the 7950 GTX SLI to the 8700M SLI (DX10).

 

What if I told that if you buy for instance a Tosh you can send it back to replace the motherboard to a more up to date system (for instance supporting a new video card). The same thing happens with HP, DELL and ALIENWARE.

So basically almost every single laptop in the market is upgradeable then. The difference is then down to the fact some companies make a fuss of it some don't? Right?

Three hundreds times 5 equals $1500 as a base cost (2 each year less one that comes with the original notebook). Let's face it on average if you follow the upgrade path is the same as buying a new Clevo every year, and that is hardly the cost of upgrades usually. Of course there are limititation on upgrades and all comes down to be a little bit smart about it like everything in life. I'm just learning what are the limitation on Clevo's and I'm verifying that is the same as any other lappy in the market at the end of the day, don't tell me now that I should like it even though that was not what most people expected.

CFred said:

"Save everyone the pain of all the whinning"

There is no need to be rude mate if you don't understand the difference between winning and complaining. I understand that is does require some degree of maturity that not everyone have. By the way in you review I bet even if you could not upgrade the video cards as you stated it would be still upgradable simply becouse I could put more memory on it.

Trance

 

I just don't understand where the idea of "upgrade" only means new items that haven't hit the market yet...I mean a lot of people bought np9261s after they heard the new cards (8800m gtx) were coming out and those same people didn't wait to hear the official word on if the card was even compatible (I almost did as well but decided to wait)...that is not clevos fault nor is it nvidia's.

Hell, the 8900s or whatever will probably hit the shelves in the next 6 months but I for one am not going to be pissed if I cannot simply upgrade because its 6 months away! Newer tech at that point, newer designs, newer tech requirements and so on. Its kind of ignorant to think that new items must be designed with old rules...then they really aren't new...

I mean it wouldn't even surprise me if clevo decided to roll out with a new monster in february that kills the np9261...just life i guess.

I agree and wish it was as simple as, "Spent a lot of money on this thing, it should be able to handle the new upgrade!" but the reality is that it just doesn't work that way.

And the "Clevo says my laptop is upgradable" argument doesn't apply...it is upgradable but not to every new product that comes out...

 

Im with CRFfred on this one. Im having trouble seeing what is upsetting people. Alot of companies would just offer nothing and hope you buy a new unit instead of trying to come up with upgrade solutions. Instead sager is trying to give its users a lower cost option. This seems like a GOOD thing to me.

Nobody is forcing anyone to upgrade. It seems perfectly reasonable to use the already awesome laptop you have for awhile, and upgrade in a couple of years. This is just the way the tech industry works.

 

Why do people that argue against the fact that some people are complaining about this with life TAUTOLOGIES like:

* No one forces you to do anything
* It is upgradeable just not to every new product that comes out
* All you need is green

etc etc etc.

We all agree with those TAUTOLOGIES, that is not the point really. Anyway to each their own. This is something that I was not expecting from Clevo's. Live and learn.

Trance
PS: I do feel sorry for those that bought it sooner with just one card thinking that they could upgrade it with the cost of two new video cards just by ordering them.

 

No offense but what is the point then? lol

 

Sorry DT, I just don't understand why people are making a huge deal out of this. I am just happy to be able to upgrade to the 8800 and hopefully the 45nm CPU.

I would like to see if the X205 can be upgraded to the options that Sager is offering, I doubt it.

 

some of you folks do not understand and just spouting fanboy comments.

the D900 was advertised as not just upgradeable, but USER UPGRADEABLE. replacement of the motherboard does not constitute neither of these two promotions.

do you know why it does not contstitute?

1) because replacement of the motherboard only grants you the right to use the 8800m card. the new motherboard does not have any performance increase. it does not have a higher FSB, it does not have more options. therefore it is not an upgrade, it is a replacement.

2) because having to fully take apart a notebook (which voids warranties, mind you) in order to replace the motherboard to use the 8800m gpu does not constitute as user upgradeable.

if the mobo swap was done for free by clevo / sager then these issues would not arrise. expecting people to shell out a heafty premium for a mobo replacement on top of the heafty premiums for the cards themselves will lead to the mess that we are seeing. you people think DTR buyers have money trees in their back yards?

MXM IV, user upgradeable. yeah, i have seen and been through it before last generation with the D900. you have been fed snake oil.....snake oil!

 

But the laptop is user upgradabel....hard drives, ram, gpus and so on...just because the mobo replacement isn't, doesn't mean the laptop isn't user upgradable...

I think people are trying to stretch and blur the advertised meanings...but that is just me. I could be wrong.