Sager has confirmed with Clevo that the M860TU will not support 44W+ processors or the 9800M GTX because of the thermal budget!

My biggest reason for going with PCMW had nothing to do with early release or for that matter the 9800GTX. It was the price. I have just one question for Justin (particularly) and Donald (if I have to) both of you're companies are stated in the Clevo guide to offer price matching; will you be able to match PCMW's price when you start offering the M860TU. Here it is:

Systems:
System # Description Price Qty Item Total
127877 Model name: Edge 15.4" Super Notebook

Parts:
Intel® Core™2 Duo P9500 (2.53Ghz/45nm/1066Mhz/6MB)
4096MB Ultra Speed DDR3 1333MHz Extreme Performance Memory
200GB @ 7,200 SATA300 Storage 16MB (1x 200GB 7200RPM)
No External Storage
Standard 8X High Speed DVD-RW / CD-RW DL Burner
nVIDIA Geforce 9800M GTS 512MB DDR3 EXTREME GPU ETA 6/30
15.4" HD WSXGA+ 1680x1050 GlassVision X-treme Bright LCD
8 Channel Advanced SRS WOW Surround Sound System
High Speed 10/100/1000 Mbps Gigabit Networking Adapter
Internal High Speed V90k Dial Up Modem
**SALE** Built In 802.11AGN 300mbps Ultra Speed Wireless Adapter
No Bluetooth
No EVDO (Evolution Data Only) High Speed Internet Connection
No GPS Location Device
No TV Tuner
No Floppy Drive
No Extra Mouse
No Controller
No Operating System (Advanced Users Only)
No Office Productivity Package
No Virus or Spyware Protection
No Burning or DVD Software
No Extra Battery
No Extra AC Adapter
No Car Power Adapter
No Notebook Carrying Bag
No Notebook Security
No Laptop Cooler
Standard Limited 1 Year Warranty Coverage
Dead Pixel Protection Not Included
$ 1,959.00 1 $ 1,959.00
Order Info:
Subtotal $1,959.00
Sales Tax $0.00
Shipping: FedEX / UPS Ground $54.50
Standard Processing $0.00
GRAND TOTAL $2,038.50

PLUS The GFX card was upgraded to the 8800GTX ($150) in place of my student discount.

 

Deathwinger: I too think that you are being extremely inaccurate in calling Donald's statements about PCMW "slander." He may be hating on them pretty hard, but it certainly looks like everything he is saying is justified and true. He obviously gains customers by discouraging people from PCMW, but it is at this point clear that he is doing us all a favor by setting the facts straight regarding the release date and possible specs of the m860tu.

Thanks again to Donald and Justin for keeping us up to date.

 

I have a feeling that powernotebooks and xoticPC will ship out m860tu before PCMW do.

 

Ive emailed PCMW 3 times in the past week.

No response.

Calling em tommorrow

 

I went to sleep. I also recognize the frivolity and futility of attempting some sort of debate online. This is due, in part, to certain posters' inability to identify points of contention and then actually debate them.

At some point, I get tired of my posts being construed in alignment to positions I never took. I grow weary of correcting people citing me on things I never said. If this was a debate utilizing a more instantaneous medium, I could quickly dispel these instances and retort. Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of the time to dedicate to this process.

 

Do you now realize that you have been proven wrong ???

(look at the m860tu fan pics)

 

I'm thinking that it might be a good idea to give them a bit of a breather; no doubt the phones and ringing like mad and the email in-boxes have probably hit maximum capacity, and all that cannot be having a good effect on their state of mind.

Other than being a little too aggressive here, in many other respects they seem to have been trying hard to provide good product to their customers, and give good after-sales support. Wu Jen, Doodles, and a number of other folks have all purchased from them and, so far as I can tell by reading posts, have had a good experience - not too many technical goofs, and a willingness to fix things when they do go "goof."

As such, I don't think that they're going to steal anyone's money, although I think that they will probably try very hard to provide some sort of acceptable substitute in order to keep some of the cash they've received. Ultimately, I think that everyone who wants their money back will get it back, unless they're put into such a hurt that the corporation has to file bankruptcy (look, don't get your undies in a twist; I have no idea what their cash position is, so I have no idea if that's even a realistic possibility, it is, however, a theoretical possibility that has to be put on the table sooner rather than later).

All in all, I think it would be a real shame if they went out of business because of this. Other than the overly aggressive offering, they do seem to be headed in the right direction in terms of the bread-and-butter systems they sell, and they seem to have the right attitude in terms of customer service, so it would be a shame to lose them because, with sufficient aging (like fine wine, of course), they have the potential to become very, very good resellers - at least that's the way I see it from the outside here.

 

not so smart lawyer = liar, liar, pants on fiar!

(ok, I know, it's "fire," I just couldn't resist the alliteration).

and this, this is just sick....

 

Actually, with regards to desktop PC's, I've always noticed that larger fans run much more quietly than the same area of smaller fans. The larger fan allows for a slower RPM for the same amount of air flow. Not sure why Alienware didn't opt for this sort of thing.

That in combination with those nice heat pipes looks like it should get some nice efficient cooling. (But that's just speculation now. ) Still gotta wait for the reviews. <grin>

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about.
1. None of my arguments were ever related to fan position/number/whatever.
2. I never defended PCMW, I clarified on the motives behind paladin's posting habits.
3. Look up "puffing" in regards to sales warranties. This is a very broad term referring to a seller's indemnity from unwritten promises. Considering the frequency of puffing's occurrence in sales, my opinion of them has changed very little.

The only written promises that have been broken, are the following:
Availability of the QX9300 and 9800m GTX. Note that even these are very minor in severity of infraction. The notebook's hardware has the capability, on paper, to support both of those components. Their exclusion from m860tu was only confirmed based on previously unreleased information regarding the thermal budget.

The true test of their credibility will be in regards to shipment of the notebooks. Several of their sales have specifically hinged on the earliest availability of the notebook.

 

2-L, or 3-L?

 

Would you kind enough to share the resources?

 

'ere ya go.


It's all I got left after that vicious wreck!

 

That statement was based on discussion, from this forum, concerning the various chipsets related to both components.

Perhaps paladin, or another seller with access to the hardware, could corroborate it.

 

What, precisely, is supposed to be corroborated? A more precise (re)statement of the proposition to be corroborated would be in order here, at least for the dim-witted and the slow such as myself.

 

I wouldn't say satire is your best suit.

 

No, you're quite right. This, now this is my best suit:



Oh, and, before I forget, what was supposed to be satirical? Last I heard,

 

Please people, this makes even me want to play croquet.

 

First off, wrong suit.

Second, I leave arguments regarding semantics at my day-job. There are multiple, commonly accepted definitions for any given word.

Courtesy of dictionary.com.

 

I think that speaks for itself; thanks for conceding.

 

You are too funny.

 

Thanks! I love compliments!

 

Any time. A good sense of humor takes you far.

 

Your original point (from the Actual m860tu thread) was arguing the release date of montevina. You argued that PCMW could keep their promise, it was likely for them to ship, claiming that you know this due to your dad working in Micron.

We see here actual proof where PCMW's statement of 3fans was proven false. This leads me to belive that they do not know what they are doing. In the episstomology of knowledge, by proving ones thesises wrong, it is evidence to belive that ones entire dogma is flawed.

Thus, since PCMW was proven false about the fans, and since many article from reputable sources are pointing to the fact that montevina will be released in July, and CLevos saying no 44W+ procs and no 9800m GTX, it kinda proves that PCMW f'ed up their original claims about the m860tu preorder.

What does this have to do with you?

Well,

You argued that:

a)Montevina will come by JUne (which implies the Edge will be delivered)

b)That the m860tu will support 9800m (despite common sense based on the m15x and Clevos official statement)

What about Paladins Posting habits? He was doing his duty to warn fellow members about a possible scam. Something that I actually fell for. He never really

a)Directly advertised PNB

nor

b)Directly presonally attack PCMW, for he just presented facts and data.

Furthermore,

This truly applies to PCMW in this case, wont it not?

In this regard, PCMW and EC went against both CLevos and Intels NDA. The m860tu was not supposed to be advertised, neither the mobile QC.

What is your source dear sir?

If they actually had the m860tu, wouldnt they have noticed that the QC exceeds the thermal budget and thus they would not have falsley advertised on their site?

This leads me to wonder whether or not they even have the m860tu with them or not.

I agree. However, ATM, all facts and data from many reputalbe sources are pointing to the premisis that they will not be able to do as so.

Sorry Shyster....

 

i have a question who and in what post did someone say that pcmw said they had 3 fans in it i have talked to them and they never said that to me. The only thing that they are saying is different is that they can put the QX9300 and the 9800GTX in the M860TU. I'm not saying pcmw is right about the processor or gpu we just dont really know yet. But they never said it had three fans. Come on that would be so stupid basically it would mean they didnt even have the system at all to get something that easy wrong

 

Heliosvector posted it earlier

 

Please stay on-topic in here, thanks. It looks like you have self-corrected yourselves so let's keep going down that road.

 

@Vedya,

Aww, man, now I've cone-envy something bad!

 

While I enjoy a good argument as much as the next fellow, aren't we all getting a little worked up over what, in the end no one can either prove or disprove? (Sounds a bit like a discussion on religion... with similar results. )

From what we've learned, (as far as I can tell), most/(maybe all) sellers will not be putting a 9800 or a QX9300 in the m860tu... not for a lack of compatibility, but from a thermal budget stand-point. Now, I myself don't know enough about the specifications involved to even begin to guess the numbers used in creating a thermal budget for a m860tu. That being said, I'm guess most/all don't know that either. In fact, no one "can" know even if they were a laptop thermal budget expert simply because the hardware isn't even out yet to make realistic measurements. Someone like that could take a reasonable guess about the m860tu's capabilities... but that's about it.

That being said, "maybe" PCMW will try putting a 9800m GTX in their "Edge" laptop... and maybe (once they get all the hardware components) after lots of testing they'll decide it's going to work and try shipping it. Or maybe they'll decide it won't work and have to refund customers their money and have people settle for a 8800m GTX. But right now it's just a guessing game.

So sure... if you have info, (like the nice shot of the underside of the m860tu, thanks again for that!), feel free to add it. And of course people will make guesstimates... but remember, that's all they can be right now is reasonable guesses. Don't get too worked up about it.

 

Now, here is exactly what I said. Taken from the thread in question:

Along the way, this was construed into your assertions. I never claimed I knew the launch date of the platform. I have knowledge related strictly to Flash related components, with certain processor updates concerning flash development. I clarified on exactly this in the thread.

I would love for you to elaborate on your idea of what common sense can be gleaned from the m15x. A terrible notebook seller can't design a compact gaming notebook? I think you'll agree that they weren't fit for the task and are a poor example as a result.

That would be why I posted it.

I know nothing about their NDA.

Paladin could probably confirm if a ES QC has been made available or not. Otherwise, I'll agree it is suspicious.

My main problem all along, has been this community's eagerness to disprove/invalidate the seller's claims. This would be a major issue if the seller had not already established their legitimacy. I'm a firm believer in waiting it out and seeing what happens. At the very worst, people will simply take their business elsewhere.

 

ahhh.. okay vedya. up for another round?

 

"What about Paladins Posting habits? He was doing his duty to warn fellow members about a possible scam."

Humn. I hope people read my last post on this thread becouse believe me is good advice

The statement above is ridiculous. PCWM is not in the scam business. If the intent of whoever warns people about it is to prove that a scam is in business then I'm terribly disappointed.

As I wrote in the previous post, pre-orders are quite common as you know. I'm sure PCMW does not make up specs just to get your attention.

What may be happening is that PCMW (like any other BIG vendor within the Clevo ecossystem) has access to Clevo R&D info (not final) and so access to non official info about specs. In the race to capture the market (any good business is in the race using different approaches) decided to give the opportunity to their customers to make orders with that info.

What is wrong with that I may ask? Is this a scam? Is this lack of business ethics?

Honestly, I don't understand why all the problem. Especially when pre-orders can be canceled and money if involved returned due to change in the specs?

Consider this:

* A customer makes a pre-order based on a spec
* The spec changes due to some reason
* The customer is given the info that the spec has changed, and so the order can be cancelled or he/she can proceed with a different spec or even a different notebook
* The customer decides to proceed or not.

Where is the scam? Where is the lie? If there is any lie it is one that all Clevo VARs (SAGER, EUROCOM, PCMW, Pioneer. VOODOOPC, Alienware etc etc) are guilty of some way or another. They portray themselves as the builders of these systems in the same line of Apple, IBM, DELL, etc etc, which they are not.

Granted, the customer may get a wee bit frustrated as he/she may have not expected a spec change, but look PS3 Specs changed quite a lot before it was launched and still people bought it and now is outselling XBox 360 in Europe. What I mean by this, is that it doesn't mean that it stopped being a good buy for some people.

The info posted by different sellers can be quite contradictory before Clevo posts the final Specs has I learned in this forum. There is no need to prove anything as they come from different approaches. Something that we are not used to with other brands, that is reallity. As Gophn post quite awhile ago, the "benefits" of going for ODM notebooks we get hot technlogy coming "directly" from R&D labs.

Vendors don't own the specs, Clevo does. So if you are looking for official info, go to Clevo web site, period. Wait ... the specs are not there .... that is becouse they are not finished.

You can ask to whoever you think provides the most accurate information. Until it is published on the Clevo website it can always be changed. I personally experienced that Donald and Justin post the most accurate (notice that "most" is not 100%). But are we in the business of the most accurate information or in buying notebooks to whoever gives the best support at the best price.

What is strange in this business is that 1.5 months before the "probable" launch we are still arguing the specs. Heck, they must have some units built or will we all be the Guinea Pigs?

Trance
PS: By the way, if this argument is about ethics then I think all vendors should rethink when they say to the press they have build the fastest system on earth (all of them do this). There are no Sager, PCMW or whatever notebooks (as it is usually perceived by customer relating to ither brands), there are Clevo importers/wholesalers and Clevo VARs. Clevo just "kindly" let this companies put their label over what they build, in terms of hardware, VARs add next to nothing over what Clevo supplies.

 

JUst a little nit - reference sets for all of the hardware has already been issued out to the ODMs, such as Clevo, so they are indeed in a position to make realistic measurements of the thermal characteristics of the suite of components that will eventually become the M860TU. N.B. resellers don't get these reference sets, so, in relevant part, only Clevo has been in a position, vis-a-vis the other actors in play here, to actually know whether or not the hoped-for components would generate too much heat to be workable.

 

Man, this is the motherthread of all laptops.
Glad I didn't get into the debate, the mods would have closed it eons ago
1 huge fan for such a power,no wonder the 9800M GTX won`t be an option...
(5792-93 xtreme anyone?)

 

Just a follow up note on my previous post and some arguments about NDA and so on.

No doupt different companies have signed different NDAs with Clevo. Otherwise there is at least a company in "trouble" that I doupt it is really.

Trance

 

PCMW advertised a specific set of specifications. Is there any evidence that this very set of specifications was ever advertised by the manufacturer of the notebook? Is there any evidence that the manufacturer ever said that this very set of specification is what the manufacturer is going to bring to the market?

If not, then the reseller engaged in deceptive advertising.

Oh, and let's not forget their ship date which was based on pure confabulation.

 

At least Eurocom was somehow left out of the story. Smart move on their behalf.

 

@lemur:

"Is there any evidence that this very set of specifications was ever advertised by the manufacturer of the notebook?"

No. Neither I see any specific specs being advertised by the manufacturer apart from statements about supporting Montevia and the 9* Series on trade shows (were is the press release?). Including the ones that are more specific coming from Donald, Justin and Pallading post from inquiries made by their reseller to Clevo. Also I'm not listening to the talks between Clevo and PCMW.

Look they (PCMW) don't need Clevo adverts to advertise the specs of their systems. They need info coming from Clevo that you and me might not have access to as Clevo does not deal with the public.

For you to prove your clame of "deceptive advertising" you should answer:

"Is there any evidence given by the manufacturer to the reseller invalidating their specs before and after they published them?"

and

"Is there any evidence given by the manufacturer to the reseller validating their specs before and after they published them?"

You are doing the acusation then it is for you to provide the evidence.

"Oh, and let's not forget their ship date which was based on pure confabulation."

Can you give me any evidence of that? What? They missed a launch date by a month or two ... shame on them all (Intel, Clevo, PCMW, Microsoft etc etc etc). This is quite a common problem in the Hardware/Software Business, so I don't see they were lieing on this either, they simply forecasted the date badly, but not as bad as Microsoft did with Vista and Sony did with PS3 with much more inside information.

Trance

 

Who are you quotting , Trance?

 

@DFTrance/lemur: Quick, act busy, the moderators are looking at us!

 

Nevermind.

Yeah,but I don`t think there is much to be said about this,this topic has already been

 

Yea, I just wrote 3 posts on this topic. I was just getting the impression that some company was getting slandered without any evidence of malpractice.

Especially since our fellow Wu Jen bought his laptop to them and has been very happy ever since. So I take his word about PCMW quality of service when he speaks well or bad of them.

As I always stated, business is a matter of trust. Some people think that a change in the system specs before shipping is enough to loose trust on some company, some people don't.

I for one only loose some trust when after the ship date (notebook in my desk) something in the specs is downgraded or does not perform as expected.

Trance
PS: I'll stop now since my point is stated. People may have a different one. Just trying to bring some balance of opinions over this specific theme under the thread.

 

Rambo told me that;s what he was told. I was only relaying info like the good little vector i am.

 

wow thats a big fan. also i agree with the point that larger fans are quieter. on my descktop, i have an Antec 900 series case. the large fan on the top was silent compared to the smaller form factors that accompanied it.

 

One can only hope for a quiet fan

 

I thought it´s not so large, maybe the similar size of 570RU Grafic Fan, and some1 told me it´s not that quiet. But can figure it out only when we get one in hand...

 

I bet it won`t be quiet,especially since it will have to run at high rpm to cool both the CPU and GPU.
I mean, even in the m15x case, they had to increase the fan speed and the lowered the threshold to tame it...

 

mhm, the m15x is incredibly loud when playing games. the m860tu will most likely not follow clevo's usually higher standards in terms of fan sound (not saying it'll be as loud as an m15x necessarily, but it won't be quiet when playing games)

 

I dunno what you mean by Clevo standards,my RU is as silent as a race car

 

that's my point, Clevo has higher standards in terms of what's acceptable in terms of fan noise.