*** Official Clevo P870DM/Sager NP9870-G Owner's Lounge - Phoenix has arisen! ***

To run them as single drives? They achieve super high speeds very similar to a RAID setup minus the quirks and additional CPU usage which RAID requires since on a laptop, it's not really hardware RAID since there is no dedicated RAID controller, so yes it is setup through the BIOS BUT the CPU handles the RAID operations which is why I got that severe performance hit.

 

So - does getting one NVMe make sense as the primary "C" drive or not even worth it...

 

If you want to run Windows 8 or 10 then yes, if you want to run Windows 7 then no as Windows 7 has horrible support for NVMe SSDs, boot times takes longer than 30 seconds, let alone the crappy performance.

I set the first NVMe 950 PRO for the OS + Programs and the 2nd one as D: for Games

 

So, my 4.5ghz setup gets 5.7second on wprime. I need those actually decent dual channel RAM yesterday........

 

how come your 4.5 ghz setup gets 5.7 when my stock 4.2/40 on 4 cores gets 5.154? something doesn't sound right, are you sure you have enough voltage/ia current/turbo max power,etc.

 

The cores are running at their specced clocks with no throttling. I am using single channel memory though. I doubt that will affect too much but yeah.

 

oh ok, maybe that's why

 

No coincidence! It was meant to happen this way! It was killing your CPU and I was just getting crash after crash even at idle. Nope mode was engaged. I'll take a single 512 950 pro and my newely swapped out 980 for the 980m sli. Let's go!

 

Yeah, I have the 16GB of DDR4 CL14 2400mhz kingston RAM coming in sometimes next week I hope. Its giving me like 10% performance decrease.

 

Wait a minute...

http://www.bjorn3d.com/2015/08/intel-core-i7-6700k-review-skylake-falling/3/

Look at this and what score they got on wprime? This make no sense.

Then look at this one:
http://www.overclockers.com/intel-skylake-i7-6700k-cpu-review/

The only conclusion I have is that memory speed affect way too much of wprime score.

 

How much of an improvement does NVMe actually have over single/RAID sata3 on windows 10(boot times, load times, games)?
I already figured out NVMe RAIDS setup's are impractical a while ago, with the PCIe 4x DMI limit and CPU overhead.
We just need one of tbe competing brands to come up with an NVMe drive that uses the full 8GTs bandwidth for all operations and we should be sorted till the next chipset comes with a faster bus in a new barebone.

Sent from my Micromax AQ4501 using Tapatalk

 

That's exactly what I'm planning to do... then I was also thinking about taking this deal and swaping the D out immediately...
From DealNews:
"Newegg offers the Samsung 850 EVO 1TB Serial ATA 6Gb/s 2.5" Internal SSD, model no. MZ-75E1T0B/AM, for $329.99. Coupon code "ESCEGFH29" drops the price to $270.99. With free shipping, that's $9 under our mention from three days ago and the lowest total price we've seen. (It's also a current best by $9, although most merchants charge $295 or more.) It features read speeds of up to 540MB/s and write speeds of up to 520MB/s."

 

Even on my previous Origin PC Millennium Desktop with an Intel 750 PCIe SSD connected to an ASUS X-99 Deluxe motherboard, the PCIe SSD was always @4x I don't know where you've seen a PCIe SSD running @ 8x?? I thought 8x/16x was for GPUs only.

 

Pc perspective did an interesting look at 3x 950 pros in raid 0:

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Storag...-Pro-Z170-PCIe-NVMe-RAID-Tested-Why-So-Snappy

 

Although the throughput benchmarks and results were ok, they heavily glossed over the Thermals.

They didn't list temperatures at all, just showing a thermal image - which shows white hot centers over the controller chip - way hotter than the surrounding "hot spots" - and those at least had Heatsinks!!

They also completely got wrong the wattage/power draw, saying the 6w max was spread out over the 3 SSD's "because they were sharing the load".

Actually the load was 3x the load of 1 SSD, as one would expect from scaling up to 3x performance numbers

"Thermals
Each Samsung 950 Pro draws 6 watts at max load, but based on what we saw on the previous page, that load is spread across three SSDs, meaning it will become even harder to reach the thermal throttling point of the drives."

That basic misunderstanding gave them an excuse to not follow through on getting real temperature readings, which IMHO is a huge disservice to the reader. And an ongoing problem with PCIE SSD's, and even M.2 SATA SSD's

Look at how hot those suckers are @ ~70c - not measured at highest load


"I did some other testing at very high loads and when they finally did begin to throttle, performance only droppd by ~5%."

And, since they don't throttle until 100c, they were likely riding right around 100c all the time during the heavy load tests.

Imagine what that will be like when there are 2 or 3 GPU's absorbing their radiated heat, and the heat from the GPU's radiating back into the SSD's... ouch. And, these test were done on an open test bench, without being boxed in to a case with all the other components blocking air flow.

If CPU/GPU temps are so important, I would think the temperature of storage based on the effectively the same elements as the CPU/GPU should also be important to monitor and reduce.

You wouldn't want to run your CPU/GPU at a constant 100c - 110c (951's throttle at 110c) under load, why is it ok to run your storage with no cooling at that same temperature.

It's not, if you were wondering.

 

It depends on the type of cooling your GPUs use but mostly they will be creating airflow and any airflow is good, even if it is warmed a little by the GPU.

With regards to maxing them out, well you really can't with 3 due to the DMI 3.0 bandwidth cap is the point he is making. It's large sustained transfers that up the heat and at max each will be sending/writing 1 to 1.15GB/sec

 

He was able to get them to thermal throttle, which happens at 100c, so yes he was able to reach thermal throttling on all 3 SSD's even with the Skylake chipset total bandwidth limited.

"I did some other testing at very high loads and when they finally did begin to throttle, performance only droppd by ~5%."

Would they get hotter much quicker, if they could run at 100% throughput given more bandwidth than is available with the current Skylake chipsets?

Yes, yes they would

The cooling in an open air testbed is different than in an enclosed case with everything else installed and blocking air-flow.

In my GT80 the area with the 4x M.2 slots bracket the CPU location on the other side.

I was able to influence the CPU limits / headroom by heating up the M.2's with simple disk transfers within the RAID0. And, I was able to raise the temperature of the idle M.2's with the CPU at 100% during long batch runs.

Without good active cooling the M.2's hold temperature much longer than they did in my G750JH, which had the 2x M.2's in a 2.5" bay on an adapter card.

My point to all this is it is ridiculus to ship / run these 70c-100c M.2 SSD's bare without heatsink / active cooling. We wouldn't do this for CPU's, GPU's, or chipsets running at this range of temperatures.

The places I see these fitting in laptops are way too restrictive in airflow. Thermal pads will hold heat unless drawn out by a heatplate/pipe and airflow.

The mfgrs are shipping them without heatsinks / fans / temperature probes, and don't make any recommendations for cooling in use, at least not that I have found.

The temperature recommendation I have found is that they are rated to run in a maximum of 85c ambient environments, which is silly given they run hotter than that when the ambient is below 25c

 

Does anyone know what are the 4 audio input jacks on the left side are for exactly? I know the second one from the bottom is the headphone...

does this laptop support like a surround headset? if so, which headset do you recommend me to buy?

I was thinking of getting this one for $49 USD:

Plantronics GameCom 780 Gaming Headset with Surround Sound

 

Clevo/sager machines are shipping with thermal pads with their machines for the M.2 drives along with other manufacturers to be fair and it is mostly edge cases where they will throttle. Adding your own little ramsinks is of course an option if you would like.

Yes each jack is used for a pair of audio channels

The headset you linked is a stereo set with virtual 7.1 (also it is USB so does not use the audio jacks or inbuilt sound card), the true 7.1 headsets are much more expensive and some would argue not worth it.

 

I have 3 sets:

A razer kraken 7.1 which I use on the Sky X9
A tiamat 7.1 which coust double the kraken price on my desktop
And a bower & wilkins c5 in ear, which by far sounds the better as it is a great audiophile grade set.

Sometimes I use the C5 on the Sky X9 with razer surround pro.

I have also tested many other 7.1 headsets by skullcandy and once owned an asto a40.

The kraken sounds MUCH better with its huge drivers than the tiamat, and I'm convinced that software surround is better on a headset, as the bigger drivers will give you better sound than multiple small drivers.

Razer software surround is very good, so for a headset I would recomend to get the kraken (its drivers are really huge) and better than any other gaming headset I tried.

But, if you have that excellent audiophile headset somewhere, try using it with a software surround, and it probably will serve you much better than any gamer headset available out there. As they are meant "only" to sound good, and not to appeal gamers with gimmicks.

 

can you reply here please and see what I want? I prefer if it's not USB

http://forum.notebookreview.com/posts/10200516/

 

One other option is to go for a bluetooth set like the soundblaster evo series

 

I wouldn'trecomend Bluetooth ones, as it have to compress the sound to send it over bluetooth, so its quality has an obvious bottleneck.

Its like listening to flac with mid-compression mp3 quality.

 

Just did ;-)

 

apt-x on Sennheiser sounds good. Although I prefer to feed the optical output from the headphone jack or dedicated optical port to a Sennheiser RS-220 which has a broader range RF connection.

You could use optical out to a receiver / pre-amp / tuner with optical in and decoders to feed regular wired headphones. I used the RS-220 because it was light weight and portable.

But for the many thousands of hours I have used BT apt-x on laptops, I can't say anything bad about it.

Sennheiser is the best so far. Don't forget to go through the setting of decoder/mode to apt-x on the headphones, I forgot once and when I remembered, it was a clear night and day difference.

Beats I tried, but went through 2 bad ones (hiss/poor quality audio), but the 3rd one I got around X-mas after working with Apple support, was pretty darned nice, until I got some interference and the hiss shouted out again, so I had to take it back.

Sennheiser MM 550-X Wireless Bluetooth Travel Headphones
http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-MM...147_img_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=1N6SK9S3WR240ZVM9310

Sennheiser Urbanite XL Wireless, Black
http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-Ur...=1-1&keywords=sennheiser+urbanite+xl+wireless

Sennheiser Momentum 2.0 Wireless with Active Noise Cancellation- Black
http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-Mo...&sr=1-1&keywords=sennheiser+momentum+wireless

The Sennheiser wireless BT headphones are hard to find. Special order usually, unless you find them in stock.

These Sennheiser Gaming headphones got great reviews from someone online at ROG forums:

Sennheiser PC 363D High Performance Surround Sound Gaming Headset
Can be used with its USB connection or normal mic and headphone connection.
http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-Pe...8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=recent&pageNumber=1

 

Can you try using the MS raid instead? That's what I'm doing and I'm curious.

 

yeah sure, let me format and waste a whole day reinstalling my OS + tens of apps + games just to test. No thank you

Dude we're not talking about a simple program/driver I can install/uninstall! I juts said I formatted and broke the RAID, now you want me to redo all this juts to test? Seriously?

 

This made me actually lol

 

If you had 3 drives, you could clone your NVMe boot drive you have working to a third 2.5" random drive. And then put your NVMes into MS raid (not BIOS).

For me the benchmarks are at around 3500MB/s in MS software raid, so definitely faster than single drive performance. Just trying to get you the most out of your dual NVMes.

 

Single Drive





RAID 0 x2






Yes I understand that the synthetic benchmarks are higher but that's for the sequential speeds. That only happens when you are transferring large files from one drive to the other which I never do. what matters most is the 4K Read speeds IMO, that's where all the snappiness feelings come from and as you can see they are higher on a single drive setup.

I haven't noticed one bit of a difference in terms of user experience speed between a single 950 PRO vs RAID 0 BUT what I did notice if you read in my earlier post, it huts CPU performance drastically since the CPU handles all the RAID operations as there is no dedicated RAID controller on a notebook. It's all software based. Well, more like a Hybrid RAID since it is setup in the BIOS but handled by the CPU. wPRIME clearly shows the reduced performance in RAID 0 even though I wasn't even running any other app that was using the RAID 0 / any data.

 

Gotcha. For me, I wanted to not bother with more drive letters so I like having them smashed together in raid 0. But I also don't bench anything so I wouldn't really know if the MS raid is hurting CPU performance. Only check I did was to open open task manager and watch the CPU while I benched and I didn't see anything obvious hogging things.

 

1) I'm like you, I just like having a C: and D: partition, less headaches and easier to manage, that was the whole reason behind me going for RAID 0 not for the speed as I know all these synthetic benchmarks/especially the sequential numbers do not happen in my workflow which is playing games, watching movies, and surfing the net

2) what you tried is not a benchmark, run wPRIME, select 8 cores from the advanced settings and run the first benchmark, the lower the time, the better.

With RAID 0, score was around 7 seconds (sometimes 6.7, and other times all the way up to 10 seconds which is horrible), with a single drive setup, the performance is 5.154 seconds! that's a big difference and it will matter in games and other CPU intensive tasks. just my 2 cents worth, take it or leave it

 

Never tried wPrime before but I tried to download it and it just exits at startup with some error.

Ah had to run as administrator I guess. 5.9s with 8 threads. Didn't see an advanced options, wonder if we're running different versions. I'm running 4Ghz with 4 cores.

You're taking me down a dangerous road of benching! Now I want to know while I idle at 49 degrees but the instant I start Wprime Xtune says I'm at 99 degrees.

 

Funnily enough - just to get an idea on temps - I ran a sensor monitor on my current system - ASUS n61jq - and found that I am averaging 90 degrees C - in my 720QM i7, and hit 97 degrees max... lol...
Strangely enough - my gpu fans are only running 30% - never more - and the gpu is not that hot at all...

I'm so psyched to get a new system... will likely order tomorrow - plus I'll be able to send direct messages tomorrow most likely - hoping Sager can do something good...

 

Well now I don't trust Intel Xtune at all. I had just done the -100mv offset. And now I set it to -110mv offset and it went down to 80c. Acting like it wasn't using the -100mv at all. Can't wait for Prema bios so I can get rid of this stuff.

 

I'm pretty sure the one I'm using is accurate... Mine burns my leg if I am not careful.. And I yanked the optical drive, the battery and clean the fan regularly.

The 9870-s is going to be magical comparatively!!!

 

I said 8GTs(Giga transfers per second) the speed is close to 4x PCIe.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9485/...-asrock-asus-gigabyte-msi-ecs-evga-supermicro

Speaking PCIe might as well get my other doubt from the link above cleared.

The image doesn't show GbE functionality for the last two PCIe lanes, which are used by this machine for its dual LAN according to the service manual. Does this matter or can any PCIe lane work as GbE?


Sent from my Micromax AQ4501 using Tapatalk

 

Can you explain why @Mr. Fox had zero problems with processor performance, although he put his ssd's in raid 0? Of course on Older AW18 models. Do not know if he tested his Panther with raid 0. Is this big cpu performanse loss because the disks run in PCI Express? It sounds strange that the processor performance was diminished by over 10% in Wprime due raid.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see there are problems with Raid 0 and NVMe SSD's. I've already ordered my P870 with this setup. Anyone know if desktop PCs have the same problem? Of course put up without a dedicated RAID controller.

 

With the Soundblaster headset the audio processing chip is actually in the headphones themselves

 

I idle at 35-39C and any stress test, be it AIDA64 or wPRIME and the CPU reaches 95C to 99C so quickly it's not even funny. We have to lower the voltage by -100 to -150mV to tame those temps

As for wPRIME, you want the older version:

wPRIME 1.5.0.5

 

XTU messes up the fan profiles in my experience, even uninstalling it won't help, only a full format/clean install of Windows will get things back working properly.

XTU - the new CPU Virus (in my experience offcourse)

 

It's always a good idea to do a backup before you start tweaking of course.

 

I've read a lot of opinions over the last week or so because I had to decide between an Samsung SM951 250Gb m.2 NVME and an Samsung 850 EVO 500Gb m.2 SATA for my P870DM-G to be used as a system drive.
In my country the listed drives cost the same but I wanted to see if the speed does make a big difference in the real world. I can't deny that the NVME drives (SM951, 950 pro) are so much faster than the regular SATA drives but in order to have the best speed possible you really need to have at least an 240Gb but 500Gb seems the best option at this point but it's expensive... so that made the decision even harder. I stumbled upon this review http://techreport.com/review/29221/samsung-950-pro-512gb-ssd-reviewed that kinda pointed out the things that I was reading in various forums... you can't feel the big speed difference of the NVME in most real world usage scenarios.
Of course mine and theirs conclusions are arguable but I wanted to post the link to the review because I did not found many that measure the NVME speed advantage in real world loads/scenarios.
I was expecting a lot more from NVME drives given how fast they run (read and write)... at least faster OS loading or games loding times.... Given the small budget that I have at this point I've chosen the 850EVO for now... I've decided that a bigger space (500Gb) is more usable for me than the small gains that I get from NVME at this point... things might change in the future.
Feel free to bring more impressions to the table!
Thank you

 

Hi Phoenix,

What exactly happens with XTU and the fans in a Clevo with the stock BIOS? Is it just randomly increasing/decreasing fan speeds regardless of the temps? Does it run them full-blast all the time?

Do you think it's a BIOS bug or an XTU bug? Maybe a i7 6700k conflict of some sort?

This sounds like something Intel needs to patch ASAP if it's purely an XTU issue. At least in the XTU software.

(I'm going to use Throttlestop just in case. But XTU is a pretty popular program for it to have this dangerous of a fan issue go unnoticed for so long.)



Thanks.

 

I've been checking for XTU updates almost every day man it's been stuck at verison 6.0.2.8 since months.

The problem is, once you install XTU, even if the temps are low or idle, randomly you would start hearing the fans blow to max blast it's very annoying and you would damage your fans if you run them like that all the time. So then I would change the fan profile from Overclock to Automatic, that would fix it for a while then randomly it would start again.

It messes up the fan tables it seems. I uninstalled it but that didn't help, only a full format would fix this. That's why I would never use XTU on this machine, at least not this version.

 

Strange... I have stock Clevo P870DM-G bios, installed XTU just to undervolt by 120mv my 6700k and left everything else untouched and I did not encountered the symptoms you described about the fans going full blast.... I will monitor further...
Btw I have windows 10 Pro 64b installed.

 

Ok, thanks.

 

Hey guys, I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on this one. I see people are complaining about the keyboard. That it's small and feels cheap. How large is it? Is it smaller than my keyboard on my Clevo P170EM? Does it feel the same, in terms of cheap, plastic etc. If it's the same quality then I think I'll wait for the next laptop from Clevo, because the one on my P170EM is really horrible.

 

So, the frame timing in fallout 4 is actually marvelous. I am getting mostly 20-30ms even at 30-40fps scenarios. Usually its around 10ms for normal fps scenarios. SLI works fine for it.

Its a 15inch keyboard, and yes, its plastic and very shallow.

 

I firmly believe the problem isn't with the Bios, I think its a conflict between XTU and the Control Center software (which have control over the fans).