*** Official Clevo P870DM2/P870DM3 (Sager NP9873/NP9872) Owner's Lounge! - The Phoenix 2 is here! **

Newer!!! Either get a cheap CromeBook, build a mini desktop or forget computers. You're crazy man

 

That isn't such a big deal,IMO... Wonder if the larger heatsink is compatible with the 870DM 980m sli, for those looking for better GPU cooling...

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

Who's seriously going to buy the top end config knowing they'll block upgrade again next refresh?

 

I don't know it was done on purpose and you guys are only missing 1080 sli. Right now, you don't even have 980 sli. Bad planning, yes. Malicious, no.

If it allows 1070 sli, comparative to 980m sli, you are missing nothing in possible upgrades. Just another laptop will allow 1080 sli. It is like my hm being compared to the em released months later. It will be ok... It is a shame, but life goes on...

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

Of course they sleeping with people from Alienware. You remember the Hybrid bios aka Battery boost? Mr. Azor implemented this modern technology in their first gen BGABOOKS aka the famous "Echo" models. Engineers from Msi was the creators for this trash!!

 

I think there is a big difference between gimping (done on purpose to impair performance -- takes evil to a whole new level) versus parts not fitting because they are too big (either a sign of stupidity or greed). We've put up with stupidity and greed from Intel and NVIDIA and Micro$haft for a while now. Gimping performance is never forgivable.

I'm waiting to see how 1080 SLI stacks up against my 980 SLI benchmarks. If a single 1080 can beat my 980 SLI benchmarks then it might be worth considering a single 1080. If it costs $1,000 for one GPU (a guess on my part) and it is not extraordinarily more powerful, it wouldn't make good sense to consider it. It should also be interesting to see what kind of gimping NVIDIA is going to do with drivers and vBIOS, and how difficult it will be for @Prema to make Pascal GPUs run at their full potential. NVIDIA isn't getting better at anything except crippling yesterday's GPUs with cancer drivers and interfering with performance using cancer firmware... they've been on a roll with those shenanigans for a few years now.

 

at least msi has bigger psu than the echo models

on msi battery boost acts as backup so it doesn't kill your psu

on echo the battery boost acts as a 2nd psu, killing the battery in the process

 

go desktop and stop wasting your money

 

Battery boost isn't even available in the GT72(S) line from what I know, its pretty irrelevant to enthusiast systems.

 

I am probably going to do that when my current machine is no longer powerful enough to be satisfying to own. It wasn't a waste of money until this freelancer MXM design surfaced. Implementing a new standard is OK if it's necessary to take performance to the next level, but we won't know whether this was an act of financial violence against customers until we see if they change it again next year or the year after. If that happens it will be obvious that their intentions are completely dishonorable.

 

This change makes owning a desktop replacement sound no different than a BGA turdbook if we have to upgrade the entire laptop to upgrade a CPU or GPU

 

GT70 (780 / 880M) came with a vimpy 180w psu and the crippled Battery Boost. Then they managed to deliver 230W with their Gt72, but still with power cap. Dellienware did the total opposite and pushed for 180w and hybrid Bios. O'' yeah, they sleeping in the same bed.... Both have BIG skeletons in the closet!! And DEll's BGA models can't use more than 240w because of the design. 330w can fry components on the motherboard. There are post's in the forum about this delicat topic. Regardless... A very Crippled design!!

 

there has been no prove of the 330w frying systems though

 

This ↓↓↓↓↓ is more than enough for me You never know with DEll!! They cheap out on everthing now. Just take a look on their desktop components... PSU osv. @Cass-Olé can a lot about this topic.

 

GT72 launched with GTX 880M. Maxwell and Pascal are all that is covered under the upgrade promise, UNLESS MSI still made this promise once 900M launched on their GT72, or made the promise on the GT80 (which launched with 900M as far as I know).

The 6920HQ can hit 4GHz on 4-core load with the allowed OC bins. Since 6820HKs barely go above 4GHz at all, it's not a huge loss (and the machine is already so power limited you'd just run the battery into the ground even faster). Also MSI has unlocked sBIOSes, but you need to buy them from Svet and uhh... let's just say... from what I hear, he'd need to digivolve once or twice before he ballparks Prema's skills.

Ain't happening. Even if a 1080 was 100% faster than a 980 (which would allow it to beat SLI) it would still need to overclock a lot to beat your OC'd 980 SLI.

Besides Dark Souls 3 and DOOM 2016 with Fermi (which they fixed in a week), and the 780M SLI issue with the Alienware laptops specifically (which they also fixed, albeit taking their SWEET time to do so, and only under extreme pressure from Dell) do you have any proof of this? A LOT of people on this forum like to say this, and as you know I * WILL* bash and criticize any and everything I see that needs this happening, but I really do not see any. As far as I have ever seen, old cards perform as well or better, give or take 1-3fps in some games (which I can forgive in a new driver if it occurs at a GPU bottleneck scenario) with new drivers. Benchmark scores have huge point differences for even half of a FPS, so it's more glaring there, but then you're looking at benchmarking drivers.

Now this is not to say that I don't feel they do anything underhanded... they do. But the only "gimping" I know of is "forced obsolescence" which, while still awful, is not nearly as bad as performance destruction of older cards. Their "forced obsolescence" involves getting games using their tech to run the levels (of say tessellation) higher than easily doable by their last generation of cards, and it inflates new card performances much higher than would otherwise be seen, so people feel that cards are stronger than they actually are (whether or not the performance benefits are real, they likely only affect a small set of games). But I simply cannot say that this is "gimping" older hardware. I've been using these 780Ms for about 3 years now. I've never seen performance drastically drop in any existing title I play, and I've played quite a lot of them. And on my 280M, I was in the same boat. I never saw direct tanking of performance in any title. I remember some titles updating to give issues (like Dark Souls 3, which after the last actual update has stupid points where my system util tanks for no discernible reason whatsoever for about 5 seconds, and is repeatable if I leave and rejoin the area) but that's just developers being stupid.

Remember, if we want to change peoples' minds we have to talk about things that we can prove with decent evidence. We've gotta be able to point and say "here, go search this" or "here, look at this video/article showcasing the problems" or "here, let me break it down for you, look at example A and example B and this is what they do and you can..." like that. I don't wanna be the person people stare at and go "yeah yeah let him and his tinfoil hat be". We gotta fight right!

 

My observation so far, on the bright side..

I think the P870DM should have been like the DM2/3 in the first place, They might have been thinking about that but considering the MSI going ahead given the market/demand time-frame, with the custom MXM design this 980 desktop happened, I'm glad that the MSI and Clevo alone have had the custom designs much much better than BGA filth (AW echo, Aorus & ASUS), They might have thought lets give them upgrade-ability but they missed the part how the enthusiasts who purchase those machines think. Also IMO Clevo made a mistake there by releasing the P870DM design unrefined, Still props to them for releasing a full GM204 beast paired with the best - custom sBIOS, partnered with savior Prema and performance with a welcoming new design.

As for the design change It's good that new machine has some real cooling tech not like that ASUS GX800 overpriced trash, Now that the shape of the 1080 SLI & rest, It had departed from the Clevo 980 200W by adding more length and different placing all vrms/mosfets/vram & different power connector (I don't get why this part happened). I just hope this is final standard for all the upcoming Clevo machines since the leaked 775DM2 also has the same GPU obv because it's a 1080 with same power connector, Clevo are very bad at PR, they should set the bar right there with transparency. Also another suspense here is how did Clevo made the 1070 card, while Prema said about the MSI 1070 card working in the 75xDM model. If that's also same as 1080 It'd be stupid while MSI had it at MXM3.0b yet again the form factor remains same for all Clevo GPUs which is a good thing right ?

Again the 200W single 1080 behemoth is not yet leaked (That old leak, gimped 1080 It might be from MSI and we know how many confusing variants that MSI already have with the GM204)...So these 1080 SLIs for 2x300W what TDP they are targeted at ? 180W ?


So as Prema said, You guys should take a chill pill and cool it off

 

Those are really long messages XD

Just my observation XD

Everyone should be much more happy with the news. everyone is getting better tech, even those who can't upgrade right away will be able to buy better things next time. everything is going for the better XD

What we need is to convince more companies to use brother @Prema 's BIOSes so that everyone with a power laptop or workstation will also have power bios.

Everything else will just be getting better for everyone. Even if innovation can't come to everything on this earth at once, it will come eventually.

Let's all be happy, we get new laptop designs every year, better and better XD

I just hope they won't ask for even more money, P870 w 980 and decent config costs around 2500 GBP right now, if it gets more expensive, it's in the expensive area again.

 

Newest tech and highest end hardware will demand premium price. Gotta pay to play.

 

What happen to that guy who was testing a 10 series mobile card?

 

I actually haven't stated whether or not I was happy with the new designs yet, only that I can no longer use "upgrade-ability" as a selling point to prospective buyers to make them pay more cash for essentially similar baseline performance, at least with existing information, and that we gotta make there not be $300-$500 differences in price with otherwise virtually the same specs (and a cheaper CPU). My OPINION is that I love the P870DM2/P870DM3 and 1080 SLI makes my mouth water, and I kind of extremely want one, and that I think things are improving overall with the screens, 1TB M.2 SSDs now existing, and varying other benefits to laptops, and by the time Volta rolls around, with all the cooling Pascal requires, there'll probably be some serious thermal headroom.

This I very much agree with. I wish mostly that Europe would get better access to Prema mods. mySN for the UK/EU and Aftershock PC in Singapore (I think) would be great, and I know Metabox is in the process of partnering with them (or so they say). Aside from that, we have HIDevolution who is the ONLY manufacturer I've ever seen selling Clevos which advertises a world-wide warranty (even if it's $300 USD extra to apply for it over the standard 3 year warranty).

 

NVIDIA happened...

 

I get that, but the card he was testing was a 1080M right?

 

You did get used to the tiny keyboard on the P870, and the keyboard on the GT80 will be heaven next to that. The trackpad is oriented like a normal desktop. Keyboard in front of the screen, trackpad to the right.

I use a single board keyboard/trackpad wireless for mobile. It goes in the bag too. I also have short wired keyboard/mouse for certain jobs.

It's easier for me to set up the laptop and move the keyboard/mouse to where I want on the cube desk, around whatever else is set up by the client.

4.0ghz for day to day use on the 6820HK/6920HQ, and although you can likely reach 4.2ghz for benchmarking.

TDP is only 45w so it will fold to 3.5ghz sustained on long term runs - if you start out a 3.6ghz with a high undervolt it will sustain that indefinately.

A 45w CPU can't be a 95w CPU no matter how you OC it

Yes, both can use XTU/TS for OC.

 

Yeah, but what is the purpose? See the processor may manage 4.1 → 4.3 GHz but on one core in bench? No thanks Better watching paint dry

 

For gaming use it's enough power, it's only when you want to drag race that it's a limitation

The drag strip is fun, but gaming is of more interest to more people most of the time, and for 99% of the games out there the 45w-47w CPU has been enough.

Once we get 1080 SLI w/45w CPU and 1080 SLI w/95w CPU and do some gaming FPS benchmarks, maybe it will be now that a >45w CPU will be needed to service the GPU's to 100% utilization.

I am thinking that's why Intel finally made a 65w variation, right in between 45w and 95w.

My gaming didn't have any lag, spikes, or delay when gaming with a 47w CPU and 2 x 980m GPU's.

Most of the time the CPU was at 35-55% while the GPU's were over 90% utilization. The GPU's were heavily used in gaming, while the CPU wasn't.

Over CPU'ing a laptop doesn't improve performance in gaming; the CPU is more idle while doing it

 

They never fixed that as far as I know. I have been helping an M18xR2 owner try to fix the problem with his 780M SLI with severe throttling and unless something happened in the last 48 hours it's still a mess and we're a year and a half since their cancer drivers induced severe performance issues. Using cancer-free drivers released prior to March 2015, the 780M SLI throttling problem goes away. Even if they did fix it after a year and a half, there is no acceptable excuse for that level of incompetence and ignoring the problem for so long.

They only fix what is important to them. I think 880M driver-induced performance issues got fixed (sort of, but not 100%) after a couple of years of pain and suffering for 880M owners. I'd venture a guess that is would probably be accurate to say that it was fixed purely by accident... I seriously doubt it was because they care or actually tried to make things right after two years of leaving it broken.

And, look no further than my last round of benching with the P750ZM. They accidentally released a driver that allows 980M to perform better than they wanted it to, and I would not be surprised if they "fix" that and it doesn't overclock so well once they discover their mistake. NVIDIA notebook GPUs always under-perform with a stock vBIOS. Virtually every mobile vBIOS they have released from 580M through 980M gimps their hardware, artificially impeding performance, causing erratic behavior and throttling.

NVIDIA are the masters of manipulation and deception. The only reason I own their products is the only available alternative is worse by a gigantic order of magnitude. That's not a compliment. I hate NVIDIA, but not as much as I hate AMD, LOL. The Green Goblin is an organization composed of creeps and crooks and the red team is made of up losers that don't seem to care about their reputation or the lame products they sell.

 

Although a BGA is able to keep up with a socket processor in gaming .., When you buy a 1080 SLI monster at a hefty price, you will most likely retain your computer a few years. Then will the Intel trash spoil the pleasure of owning the machine. Maybe you want to upgrade your graphics if it's possible... What about the processor?

 

Being a owner of dual 880M I have to say, the later drivers don't throttle the stock vbios and I have been playing a lot with them. So far so good. But I'll be getting the P870DM3 as soon as I can

 

I thought I would miss upgradeable processor in a laptop too, but after 2 of my laptops came with X CPU's out of the box, there wasn't anything to upgrade to.

My last one did have 1 CPU step up, but the one I had wasn't utilized enough in games for me to consider upgrading the CPU - it worked great.

I think the 6700K fits in this description too, as the Kaby lake CPU - while it will work in a 100 Series chipset motherboard - gets more functionality from a 200 Series chipset motherboard, so I'd rather upgrade the motherboard as well as the CPU.

Same on the desktop, at least for me, I start out with the top CPU so there isn't a must have CPU replacement - like 9950 Black => ??, 980x to 990x - not worth it, 2700K => ??, so going to the next socket/chipset is the upgrade point for me in desktop's too.

Not saying I wouldn't like a desktop CPU in my laptop, it's just not the #1 concern, until it limits utilization of the GPU's in apps/games.

Which might happen this time around with the 2x performance increase with Pascal GPU's

 

hey mr fox, been a while since ive been on nbr, recently my AW 17 ranger has had the 8 beep problem, i was finally looking into it today and found your post on dell
http://en.community.dell.com/owners-club/alienware/f/3746/t/19528315
looking to try this, but any advice?
could you shoot me a pm? i think you are local to me

 

You can try that and see what happens. If you have been running EVGA Precision X, the LCD is probably bricked.

*** Windows 10 + NVIDIA WHQL Drivers are Killing Alienware and Clevo LCD Panels ***

Windows 10 + GeForce Drivers are Killing Samsung and LG Notebook LCD Display Panels | GeForce Forum

***EVGA Precision X and Windows 7/8/8.1 and especially 10 bricking systems***

 

How long did it take for them to correct the problems before 880M actually functioned correctly? 2 years, not counting my driver mods that helped them work better while everyone was waiting for them to fix their mess?

 

There is a substantial difference if you buy a new 1080 Sli machine with [email protected] GHz vs. The same machine but with [email protected] if you think about keeping your laptop for a while. Such a machine is not cheap and if you might be able to upgrade the graphics after 3 year, it is possible you will keep it up to 5-6 years in the end. Up to 20% gain from low powered BGA **** is great if you upgrade graphics down the road.

 

Really? I could have sworn the r361 branch of drivers which caused problems with older vBIOS bases did so because it was aimed at getting rid of the throttling issues in the Alienware SLI notebooks... is this not right @Prema? If it really isn't gone it's news to me, and I'll retract that statement. I hope I can get a clearer picture of this. For the record, though, I have no issues. Here's a small OC firestrike run I did on 365.19 about a week or so ago just to see if it still worked. So it would be an AW-only problem.

The 880M I just wrote off as a broken-out-the-gate card and I never really consider it in general. I know they're broken and I believe they will always be broken. It's actually news to me if they've been "fixed".

Perform better? Was that 369.00 that boosted firestrike scores a good bit? Yeah, that one will be one to watch.

I know the stock vBIOSes are always broken. I had artifacting at 120Hz with my 780M SLI machine without using svl7's vBIOS. I *LITERALLY* had a broken-out-the-gate product here. But I'm not talking about their vBIOSes right now. You're definitely preaching to the choir saying that to me, however I'm SPECIFICALLY talking about new drivers that make cards perform worse in older games without changing anything else (I.E. the cards are running properly at proper speeds etc but you have 10fps-20fps less, or something).

This, I 100% agree with. I find it appalling that without competition they seem to have no care for making good products, but my annoyance at AMD's unwillingness to compete and seeming lack of knowledge of HOW to compete trumps this. I even have long-time AMD fanboys (and I do mean "FANBOY" in the actual sense of the word; as in "will purchase their products because they are AMD and not nVidia/Intel and just freaking make do") who are saying if AMD doesn't bring anything to the table by october/mid-november, they're just going to go buy a nVidia/Intel system because they're fed up of waiting. They've gotten that bad.

 

2 years and 1 month to be exact. Used your driver's for far too long until I could use official ones..

 

No, it wasn't 369.00. Fire Strike, Sky Diver, 3DMark 11, Vantage and everything else. And, if I use the previous drivers (basically all of them) my core OC max is less and the memory OC max is a LOT less (+1095 offset max versus +500 offset max). Maybe you didn't see the post... http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/clevo-overclockers-lounge.788975/page-446#post-10304949

Stop and think about it a few minutes, bro. If NVIDIA was truly competent and their drivers were not cancer drivers, would @j95 spend so much time modding them to fix performance impairments? Would the GeForce Community be overrun with unhappy customers if their drivers actually worked correctly? They break things that worked right with older drivers and fix stupid/unimportant/less important bugs and leave their broken stuff broken for months (or years, as we have observed more than once).

I am going to test the two 880M cards that I haven't had any luck selling yet in the P870DM-G. Should be interesting to see how 880M SLI runs in that beast.

 

No, I didn't see it. I don't use NBR as much as I used to these last few days, mainly refreshing the gaming/software/graphics cards section once or twice every day or two. Does 369.00 allow that still? And I see all those tests were on W10? Even 3DM11? Does it clock so high in W8.1/7?

*eyes W10 suspiciously* I remember john saying something about suddenly being able to clock high in W10 after a recent update...

 

I haven't tried Windows 7 or 369.00 yet. John can do it in Windows 7 as well. I am not dual booting Windows 7 at the moment as I am focusing on attempting to fix Windows 10's serious performance disorders and if I don't force myself into using this piece of crap I will never figure out how to tweak it for the best performance. I always end up using Windows 7 because of my hate for Windows 10. (I already tried that and as long as I have Windows 7 available it's too hard to set aside my hatred for 10.)

It's all crippled GeForce cancer drivers, not Windows. Both of us are running hard-modded 980M cards, but even with the hard mods my max memory overclock was around 1550 versus 1800 using their cancer drivers. Before the GPU hardware mods my max memory OC with cancer drivers was about 1450. Not sure how high I might have been able to go with good drivers because there were not any good drivers available before they were hard modded.

I suspect NVIDIA had some artificial overclocking and performance limits hidden in their driver cancer code. You do know NVIDIA have blacklisted certain things and have some secret performance caps for benchmarks, correct? That way they can manipulate performance up or down using drivers so that their older flagship GPUs will not be able to perform as well, or almost as well, as their latest flagship GPUs.

 

Intel Xeon E3-1200 v5 series has a TDP of 80w at base clock with the E3-1280 V5 (higher frequency) using lower volts than E3-1245 V5 (but these run at lower volts and lower frequency than a 6700K)

If you upped the 45W 2.7ghz cpu to 4.1 on all cores, you'd be pulling 68W if you didn't increase the voltage. 2.7ghz uses less volts than 3.4-3.7ghz.

 

There are a lot of moving parts going into hitting the power draw limit limit. You can undervolt, detune cores, and detune the cache, but eventually you're still gonna hit the power limit.

And, reducing cache throughput can reduce performance the same as reducing the clock speed, and you can end up with higher core clock but get less "work" done. You need to test OC with the actual app and workload you are trying to reduce runtime / improve performance.

Get a nice solid sustained 3.6ghz bouncing just under 45w by using a high undervolt - you can get a higher undervolt starting at 3.6ghz fixed 4x core than starting at full boost, and avoid dropping down about 100-200mhz below 3.6ghz.

With more cores, the power is split between them, which means lower power per core, which means a lower than 3.6ghz clock is likely.

The same technique and rules, shifted up 1ghz works for 95w TDP CPU's

 

NVIDIA went after the seller who gave him the system to review. I think it was a 1070.

 

Ok, if it can be done in W7 then it's just pure drivers. That's interesting to note. If newer drivers break the OCability (and your scores and everything else drop too) feel free to tweet me or message me about it. Otherwise I haven't seen a new driver make existing games perform worse so I would feel more like buying new cards (and not have that issue fixed promptly, like with the fix for the Fermi cards with Dark Souls 3 & DOOM.

See this is what I'm asking. You said newer drivers perform better and that they probably had crap older drivers. I believe that. But they were crap from the start, and your statements affect overclocks, no? I do remember them "adjusting" the general performance with regards to power draw at some point near the clockblock, but aside from that period, I haven't seen drivers directly hurt performance of existing titles. Benchmarks is another realm I can't say I properly know, neither about that secret performance caps. I have heard about blacklists in the past, and I've seen people insist evidence that nVidia takes information from your PC via the streamer service even if you don't install it, and a whole lot of other stuff. Don't get me wrong. I'm not going to sit here and say they're great or an amazing company or anything even close. ALL I am saying, is that I specifically have not seen them gimp previous cards in games to sell newer cards. And you're not showing me that either, even if your claims about benchmarks are valid or not.

 

DOUBLE POST IS THE BANE OF MY EXISTENCE ON THIS FORUM. *internal rage*

 

Ok so let's sum it up

MSi
Pros:
1. 2 generation upgrade promise
2. BIOS can be unlock by svet
3. Demoed 2x330w Y-adapter
4. Choice of normal keyboard or mechanical (GT73/83 SLi)
5. iGPU / dGPU switch
Cons:
1. BGA CPU
2. Card TDP not as strong as clevo
3. Pay for svet bios, though not expensive
4. Expensive as hell for what they are
5. Possibly only 1x TB port
6. Nonstandard Windows key placement


Clevo
Pros:
1. Strong cooling system
2. Card TDP is high (biggest pcb)
3. Prema + NBR + T|I support
4. 2x TB port
Cons
1. No iGPU/dGPU switch
2. Uncertain upgrade path


Honestly if the MSi isn't so expensive I'll probably go with a GT73 SLi...

 

All I really care about (mostly) is overclocking and benchmarks. While I do play games, that is secondary to me and I don't care if the drivers work flawlessly to play games or not. I won't be showing you in games because it's too much effort for something that is not important enough for me to spend the time it would take to do that. But, I just showed you with benchmarks and that's enough. If my max overclock is capped off at 300MHz lower (which is actually 1200MHz) due to a gimped version of their drivers, or accidentally unleashed if they forgot to cripple performance before releasing the driver, that's ample proof that NVIDIA and their manipulation shenanigans sucks.

 

the problem is, even if prema can crack the pascal bios thing. there's not yet a working nvflash that supports modded bios

 

That happened with Kepler, then with Maxwell. NVFLASH and Maxwell Pascal BIOS Tweaker will need to be updated or modded to fix that. Unless NVIDIA pulled a fast one and did something underhanded to interfere, that should follow in fairly short order. I would not be surprised if Brother @Prema already has that worked out and we just don't know about it yet. Some things like that are only revealed on a need to know basis and none of us need to know that yet because we don't have Pascal GPUs. And, even if he doesn't, he is going to have one of these beasts to call his own, so vBIOS mods should be less cumbersome if he is not having to work vicariously through testers.

Some things need to be kept a secret until it's too late for the powers that be (NVIDIA in this case) to take active steps to screws things up. We may also see some extreme black witchcraft from Micro$loth Windoze OS X interfering with GPU firmware and driver mods before long. The more the curtain gets pulled back with Micro$haft, the more ugly the crime scene looks.

 

I just hope that the clevos that have 1080 is able to run windows 7...

 

I do as well. If not at release, I'm sure @Prema will fix what is crippled in the BIOS like he did last time.

 

1st gen GT72 had 880M, so Pascal is the last promised upgrade for that. I don't know if GT80 was promised for two gens which would cover it for Volta, but then even if it was, I don't know if the GT73/GT83 has any upgrade promise.