*** Official Clevo P870DM2/P870DM3 (Sager NP9873/NP9872) Owner's Lounge! - The Phoenix 2 is here! **

So with all my respect, if I want to buy the most powerful machine in the world for benchmark, overclocking, and heavy gaming, I have to do the below:
1- Pay almost $5000
2- Changing fans:

3- Changing and playing with thermal pads and repast with a CLU or somthing else:

4- Shorting resistors by a jumper or drop of CLU on the shunts:

5- Waiting for Prema BIOS to manage all features and unhide the the secret options. What Prema did is something we all respect without a debate, actually I feel that Prema and other BIOS, vBios moders like svl7 & Johnksss are making us happy and enjoying our machines more than the manufacturer company.

Maybe some of our respected members will disagrees with me. But the differences should not corrupts the intimacy. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I'm getting more data on the pads, we have no data on the fans (though that looks like a pressure optimised design over airflow).

Power mods from the factory? That would be highly irresponsible.

Sager have unlocked the XTU controls in the BIOS.

 

Oh well, Asus 1070 based laptops are in Romania now.

A 6820HK + 1070 + 32GBRAM (unknown) + 256SSD (Unknown) + 1TB HDD (unknown) costs the same as
6700K + 1080 + 32GB 2133 CL14 HyperX + 480 Corsair XTi SSD + 1TB WD Black 7200RPM.

All in all, Clevo is cheaper in romania, an at this price point it's worth buying it and tinkering with it.

@Prema Bios and vBIOS will make the machine totally worth it!

 

6700K at base is 4.0GHz stable, this means it should be stronger than it's 6820HK counterpart, 1080 is 30% stronger than 1070 (and considering the power brick differences)

We usually put better RAM than OEM and better SSD and better HDD.

And Asus has to deal with Optimus... (which is the main reason I avoided it. Their design is pretty cool, but Acer Predator has the best design for a gaming laptopy right now)

 

I really don't think he is directing this towards you, people respect and look for the transparency that several of us have. But in return it will urge the push to purchase or not purchase and that's their own decision, we already made ours because we expect the effort and know our own abilities.

Sent from my LG-H901 using Tapatalk

 

Yes, Yes thank you @GTVEVO , this is exactly what I meant, I have all respect for everyone and for our seniors like @Meaker@Sager, he is an example of a high class gentleman, sharing his knowledge everywhere, what I'm trying to do is more pushing to let Clevo fix their problems by themselves, and not throw responsibility on the distributors and users.

 

I finally decided on a P870DM3 from Hidevolution (likely am ordering next week), and upgrade it later, is there any real advantages on using faster DDR4 than the stock one (2400Mhz)?

 

Gotta love this place. Leave it to us to make a mountain out of a mole hill. We fail to realize that what might be a problem for me, maybe not even be an issue for somebody else.The thinking that if the "system has something I dont like, it must be the worst system for entire human kind" is just cringe worthy.

 

Pretty much.

 

Not much. But if you love chasing numbers I would buy the best ram sticks. I would but you aren't me

 

That's just plain mean now! Some of us really have a fix with chasing best numbers!

Makes me want to order some of those beefier RAMs but... But when reading their specs, we need to search for low CL high speed ones, and very few are actually better, hard to find locally..

 

I ordered the cpu fan of the G751 now to test if it has higher rpm than the vga fan. Both Deltas are run in the Asus with pwm signal, ie 4pin fan connector. The DM3 is 3pin. So the Deltas in the DM3 are controlled by voltage which seems to work well. I therefore also ordered some mini vga fan 3pin adapters from the US. Delivery could take a while.

I will post some temp results under heaven when I find the time. However, this will be with one Delta and one ADDA. Because of the grid heatsink both fans cool both cards, so the results will be preliminary and a mix of the performance of both fans.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G928F mit Tapatalk

 

Aren't the same fans used in all the new P870DM2/DM3 models, I would think everyone would want to replace them, as they have a characteristic sound even at idle / low speed.

 

It's funny, the 6820HK costs more by unit in 1000 quantities than both the 6700k and 6600k:

Recommended Customer Price (qty - 1000)
6700k - $339.00 - $350.00
6600k - $242.00 - $243.00
6820HK - $378.00

http://ark.intel.com/compare/88195,88191,88969

 

That was my same point earlier, no other laptop manufacturer has this kind of out of the box re-assembly necessary to get acceptable use and performance.

At least this time there are similarly efficient fans that are quieter available.

Except for this mystique built over years of hard work by the people here and elsewhere to get Clevo's optimized to make full use of the desktop processor and top Nvidia GPU's, no other brand would get away with this.

It does chase people away from purchasing the first time.

And, for many that get sucked in assuming they will perform all the actions needed to get things running well after they purchase, but end up never doing anything, never buy again.

They are stuck with a noisy, hot, untuned laptop they are ashamed to admit they bought, lest they get jided for not following through on the mods themselves, and be branded as "wimps".

I've had several guys at client sites pull out Clevo /Alienware DTR laptops and ask if I would do the mods necessary to get optimum performance - which I can't do as I am getting paid by their company for completely unrelated work.

Another site pointed out the stack of Clevo's in racks running in the data center doing computations for another project. The project manager bought them for his team assuming they would use them as their desktop replacements and do their calculations as well.

The sea of fellow cube dwellers wouldn't put up with the fan noise they generated when at full computational load for hours at a time, but they needed to run the batch jobs for weeks at a time for their project, so they lost their desktop replacements to the datacenter - they all scrounged old Dells for their desktops - no budget left.

That project manager also asked me to mod the laptops... I had to tell him sorry, as I was there for other projects.

It's all important stuff that needs to be fed back to Clevo, as this has been going on for many years.

Clevo would sell lots more of these if they would work out the QC, tuning, and reduce the fan noise greatly, before shipping them. A combination of hardware and software work best done at design and build time.

Clevo would start getting orders from businesses again to do the work they excel at when fully tuned out of the box. These companies don't have staff, budget, or time to do the rework themselves.

 

What feature has 6820BGA over 6700K ?, as this **** is a more expensive? A feature such as, fit in thinner laptops? This means get less but pay more Ingeniously!! The larger laptop you buy means lower lower price than a Turdbook. Yes please!! Maybe Nvidia should have done the same. Sold Titan XP and 1080 for a lower price than GXT 960 !! Yes please

 

Oh boy, I'm late. Time to type.

Spoiler: Book and stuff

I would say that the HGST and WD Black are about equal, give or take. Buy the HGST from the manufacturer though; they're known to have used models selling on places like Amazon somewhat often (at least in the US) so OEMs are the best place to get them from. I think it's more your personal choice here, though I'd pick the HGST personally as I've had good enough performance out of it and for no other reason. Ignore WD Blues, pretty much forever. Same with Seagate Barracudas. And *ANY* drive that is named "Green". I swear to you I've seen reports of over 100% failure rates on some "Green" drives, somehow.

This is a windows deal. Try killing adaptive brightness in your power plan settings and setting your "dimmed" display brightness to match your default brightness. I had the issue before and I've had it go away somehow, but I truly don't know what killed it. It was extremely annoying when it DID show up, though.

Samsung's 3D V-NAND helps their TLC drives sustain performance under longer load times (though as a professional user, you should be using MLC or eMLC alone) and have longer lifespans in general. Most of the other brands have either annoyingly problematic drives/bad failure rates (like OCZ; just ignore any OCZ drive really), or don't exactly specify that they're TLC (and thus cheaper). Also, some run hotter than others etc like Crucial drives that are relatively warm SSDs. The last well-known bug with Samsung was the 840 EVO drives, which weren't nearly as good as the 840s or 850 EVOs, and 1TB 850 EVO mSATA/M.2 drives (which I didn't hear about until recently and know not if it has been fixed either; though it doesn't affect SATA drive users). In this case, Samsung's 850 EVOs are the best TLC drives one would usually buy, and their MLC drives also benefitting from 3D V-NAND are among the best MLC drives to choose from too. I *DID* manage to get a MX200 for around the price of an 850 EVO in the past on a sale, however since it's already lost a couple % of "health" via S.M.A.R.T. even being MLC despite my only using it for about half a year so far, I'm not too impressed (it has few writes too, except for my pagefile. No hibernate file either).

Also, avoid Intel drives. At their rated write limit (72TB I think) the drives just close up shop and enter read-only and on next reboot become fully locked and one needs to go through an intel data recovery procedure to get stuff off of them. I would never recommend these drives to anyone, under any circumstances.

LISTEN, I NEED THESE BECAUSE REASONS. LIKE, LOTS OF THESE. THANK YOU. <3.

IPS does indeed do 5ms. Desktop 1440p 144Hz IPS panels (the Gsync/Freesync 27" ones in particular) are 4ms. They cannot do Ultra Low Motion Blur without being locked closer to 100Hz; they aren't THAT fast. But there is ZERO reason for 25ms-35ms laptop panels with those in existence.

You can say that again.

I... very much am disappointed that the B173HAN01.2 is 25ms. It is listed as 5ms and if it was 5ms it'd have been the holy grail of panels as far as things were concerned. But right now it's basically a highly clocked normal trashy IPS notebook panel... it's still 6-bit colour. I would have overlooked that if it was truly 5ms/120Hz, even though 8-bit colour is really what we should be striving for, but 94% NTSC Gamut 5ms/120Hz was "good enough" compared to the rest of the notebook panels. Now it's just completely off my radar if this is the case. It looks like if I ever get one of these, the B173QTN01.3 will be the only choice as it's 5ms. Even the Chi Mei 120Hz in the MSI models that's TN is freaking 25ms.

The LP173WF4-SPD1 and -SPF1 are both 60Hz. The "75Hz" that is offered with them via some retailers worldwide is a simple BIOS-level EDID update that sets the default refresh rate to 75Hz. It's an aftermarket deal done by some OEMs. For example Clevo's standard is 60Hz; places like Metabox don't even know about 75Hz being a thing on those panels for P770DM/P870DM models. Sager/Eurocom/Mythlogic/etc use the 75Hz EDID though. So it's a "who to buy from?" situation once again. Those panels are not specced for 75Hz, however they generally all hit 75Hz or higher, so OEMs figured "hey free refresh rate bump, let's use it as a selling point". They're still 25ms IPS.

I'd get the fastest RAM (2800MHz) and in the special checkout, ask for @Donald@HIDevolution and say you want the 3000MHz option. 3000MHz 16-18-18-43 is better than 2666MHz and 2800MHz 18-18-18-43 which are the specs of the G.Skill they're using. Kingston has better latencies in general, but the sticks aren't as reliable from what I've heard from multiple users. As such I've stopped recommending them, really.

The advantages come from high speed and lower(-ish) latencies. They need to be paired up. Kingston 2400MHz 14-14-14-36 vs G.Skill 2666MHz 18-18-18-43 for example would have the Kingston run circles around it. I have personally noticed a benefit from good RAM in my current machine (though I did make a drastic change of 1600MHz 11-11-11-27-T2 to 2133MHz 11-11-11-31-T1), and I suspect it should make a decent enough difference in some games and programs for your machine as well to get the best of RAM. It won't show much benefit in benchmarks like Unigine or 3DMark that are designed to stress the GPUs for the most part, though.

 

Thank you very much for all your help!

I kind of pulled the trigger on a Corsair XTi, which is one of the better MLC drives made with the new tech and should be extremely resistant to writing.

Let's hope for the best!

As for HDD, OEM didn't offer HGST, only Seagate, Samsung (which is seagate) or Samsung SSD. I had enough WD to know that greens are not the best, blues are meh, but WD is pretty resilient through time, so I'm going with WD Black and I hope for good performance.

 

@D2 Ultima , So that MSI TN 120Hz Chi Mei FHD Panel which has the high response times at g2g sitting at 26ms while the b2w at less 6.8ms does that panel also exhibit the ghosting with the high refresh rate like the 25ms IPS panels here ?

Very sad If that's the case, My thinking was if the b2w is fast enough it might compensate the ill effect of the g2g by less fraction but still It's better in any regard than that of IPS ones....

P.S - Also the 4K panel is 40pins while the rest are 30pins and iirc Clevo doesn't put both connectors like the Alienwares, This is a bummer if the panels are spreaded across these pin connections making the upgrades painful (soldering on mobo) with future iterations of Panels, Not a major thing but...

 

zero. zilch. nada.
of course benchmarks will show... but I've read tons of tests on that.
there could be at some point.
but not now.

unless you have a specialized usecase that profits from it, more than 2400 now seems to do nothing.

 

When I get home I'll have to look for some Digital Foundry gaming benchmarks I found. To my surprise the faster ram gave a very healthy increase to the FPS.

 

friendly test on a German site got 62 decibel on a single gtx 1080 p870dm2.

6 decibel is twice as loud subjectively.
msi has stuff that is 49 decibel that is in real world usage almost as fast.

4 times as loud is not a small difference.
the unreasonable and business destroying attitude here is to dismiss valid complaints because you want to show your leet level on a forum.

I need a laptop. I would not have bought Clevo in 10000 years if I had no hope my reseller of choice can get this under control.

no reseller needs or wants sheep like subservience and "I'm special because I like stuff that can only be used for benchmarking" that ultimately leads to Clevo not being deludged with criticism, changing nothing for the better and ultimately bancrupting resellers and itself.

grow up.

 

Sure kid.

Dont even find it worth the time to reply to people like you.
Go do your research and then come back. if you find MSI so much quieter then go pay more for an inferior system.

Oh and for the record, im not buying another clevo DTR ever again. Reasons for which i really dont think you will even be able to comprehend.

Ignore list it is for trigger happy kids like you.

 

It would probably be less annoying than 25ms b2w 35ms g2g 60Hz, but it should definitely be notice-able.

It can certainly help in games, especially with multi-GPU. Upgrading my RAM as I outlined in my last post actually gave me +25fps in one game, up from about 90 to near 120.

 

This exactly is the problem i was referring to. If you have a thing for a cool and quite laptop, power to you, there are many options available to you including that MSI you mentioned. But to some people whose priority is maximum power, clevo is the only option available. And i dont want them to dumb down the system for a stupid reason like this.

I am getting sick and tired people dissing the system for stuff like noise, thickness, weight, battery life of these massive DTRs knowing fully well that these are the systems having desktop CPU and desktop GPU. Noise, heat, weight, size, battery life will be a natural side effect.

 

what game?

I am in no way hostile to the idea of better RAM.... but I just never saw any good examples...

it is true though that test/review sites have this attitude sometimes of doing standard tests and determining of xyz gives an improvement instead of researching cases that show difference and them benchmarking that.

case in point: had the choice between a GTX770 2GB and the 4GB version....
at the time everyone repeated ad nauseum this idea that more than 2GB makes no sense....

if I had not played some (dont remember even what it was) niche game that needed more and dabbled in skyrim enb stuff that went close to 4GB VRAM, I'd have 'saved' 100$ and chosen the lover version...

but thanks to choosing 4GB I could use it for much longer

 

@cloudlight

We're referring RAM, not VRAM.

 

It's more expensive because the extra solder Jacks up the price. Those are high quality solder beads made out of rare metals from space.

In all seriousness though. A 6820HK costing more than a 6700K is a joke.

The 6820HK if lucky in the silicon lottery can be a fine chip for its purpose, but to cost more than a superior 6700K is just silly.

Every time I see anyone complaining about battery life on these beasts I just SMH with *face palm.*

It's like buying a Bugatti and expecting 40MPG...ain't gonna happen...

In one way I'm glad to be able to tune the DTR, really am...actually prefer to do it myself, HOWEVER, this does not give any leeway to the poor QC on the manufacturers part. It's a double edged sword...

As far as the fans go though, at the least Clevo should offer a discount or mark down their prices for taking short cuts. I don't mind the noise, but a quieter fan would be nice... it's short cuts like this that goes against the justification of the units price as a package. Just my opinion.

But...doing aftermarket replacements is all a part of the fun and if one is able to afford a DTR at this caliber, then $150 is chump change. BUT, this does not give Clevo an excuse to be cheap skates either.

::iunlock::

 

current problem with 870dm2/3

-no prema
-excessively loud fans (this is ok, but temps don't seem to be stellar for the airflow it provides)
-need to delid/lm to get the 6700K running at stock
-thermal pad issue on gpu (excessive corner cutting)


not expecting perfection, but it shouldn't be like this either

 

Evolve Stage 2, is the one I saw the most benefit in.

In Killing Floor 2 and Black Ops 1, I keep my higher framerates much more. CPU load was reduced by a full 20% on the GPU-feeding CPU threads in KF2 in particular just by swapping the RAM.

You probably don't see proper RAM reviews, because people leave the timings out of it. Look at JayZTwoCents for example. Benching DDR4 vs DDR3. What does the idiot do? Use X99 with quad channel RAM against Z97 dual channel, then say DDR4 is 2x as fast even if the latency is higher. Then everybody goes off things like that and get incredibly incorrect ideas about things, and half the bloody tech world doesn't know cows from donkeys. What matters is a combination of speed and latency. If you compare DDR3 1600MHz 8-8-8-24 versus 2133MHz 10-12-12-31 (both easy to find on a site like PC Part Picker) you actually end up with the 1600MHz RAM having a slightly larger bandwidth. Programs do like faster speed RAM, but the bonus is offset by the slower transfer, and you'll end up with generally the same results. Hell, look at XTU Benchmark's top scorers for notebooks. Most of them use 1600MHz or 1333MHz RAM but at like, cl5 or cl6, because the benchmark relies heavily on actual data transfer, so lower speed but vastly lower timings give the best scores. If you want to see a better test, here: http://www.anandtech.com/show/7364/memory-scaling-on-haswell the article is pretty old (testing pre-GCN/Kepler cards), and more recent games are likely to show more of a benefit, but the differences there especially in multi-GPU (like the P870DM2/3 have).

As for your vRAM statement, more vRAM is better than less unless less somehow hinders the card in some way (like the 8GB 880Ms were hindered compared to 4GB models in serious heat issues). Especially since vRAM generally does not correlate to GPU usage (though many games mix resolution & quality settings into one, which shouldn't really be done).

 

I fixed a bit on you reply

 

yea and fry your balls while you're at it since the chip requires so much voltage to get decent clocks

 

So, I just want to make sure I got this correctly...

You want Intel to raise the price of the 6700k/6600k since they are clearly superior to the 6820HK??

Or, would it be better for Intel to lower the price of the 6820HK?

 

What most people dont know is that there could have been many challenges because of the frame that limited their options. Im not defending them, but certain fans out there are very difficult to implement without making major changes.

 

so is the current fan in the p870dm the best one available?

 

Im dont really know. Since i have no idea about what types of fans MSI/ASUS are using. From what i have heard the ASUS ones seem to be the most silent, but dont push as much air?

 

Both To lower the price of the 6820HK to fall way below the price of the 6700K and to also lower the price of the 6700K.

::iunlock::

 

The best would be that Intel remowed 6820 BGA from their production. Ideally all variants of this useless tech And then forced all ODM/OEM's to increase the size on their high end performance laptops so they could fit 6700K

 

Ok, I like that even better.

Remove the 6820HK from the price list completely, making it FREE for all to enjoy

 

asus is only silent cause they don't rev up as high as the msi or clevo

 

Nah, the GT80 would run the GPU fans at 4500 rpm, and yes they were louder than the auto plan, too loud for most people to tolerate, but they didn't have that turbine engine whine of the ones in the P870DM2/DM3 right now.

I would have thought those Delta 12v's would be worse, but it looks like they are better than the stock fans - maybe he can record a video with them at full tilt so we can hear the difference.

 

I fixed this also bro

 

the gt80 has same fans as gt72 right (as what someone did a few pages back)? just there's two opening for the left/right heatsink?

so it might be better to buy 3x gt72 fans and fit them in the p870dm2/3

 

IDK, the GT80 fans looked bigger than the GT72 fans of the same vintage, maybe that has changed?

The fans that other guy found look like a good fit and quieter too. I guess they are a little expensive though.

 

mm, not going to spend money if the 3rd party fans only offer quieter operation

what I would pay is for faster fans though, noise doesn't matter to me

 

They are supposed to cool as well, maybe better

If not for you, then as a selling point to the next guy when it's time to part with it and move on to the next tech.

 

next guy probably don't want the laptop modded lol

 

I know I would

 

I'll probably supply you with the material and whatnot, but I don't feel confident in modding the chassis or power connector for fans

 

It should be a drop in replacement. You might need to RTV them in place if some of the screw holes don't match up.

But, you should be able to get it built that way, or modded by the vendor - let them figure it out

Built it specifying the fan make/model, or RMA it for "noise" and suggest the replacement fans, see what they say