*** Official Clevo P870KM1/P870KM1-G/Sager NP9876 Owner's Lounge! - Phoenix 3.0 ***

I'm confused. What do you want Clevo to do, just not release a refresh with the new chipset? That's a really good way to lose sales, even if the improvements are minimal.

 

I already explained that the KM/KM1 is the Z270 chipset. You cannot change a chipset on a motherboard. For Clevo to release Z270 (with native Kaby Lake support) they needed to make a new model. The extra M.2 slot is PURELY because the Z270 chipset has more PCI/e lanes on it than Z170. 4 more, to be exact, which is what NVMe drives use. This happened with every single soldered laptop too. GT73VR 6RF is now GT73VR 7RF (for 7th gen CPU). Alienware can't even offer 6820HK anymore as replacement units for people (someone in the NBR discord was complaining about this) because 7820HK is out. This also locks all mobile CPU-using laptops from this point on to Windows 10. ALL. At least the DM3 is still selling right now.

I don't even understand this. You need to re-type this for me. If you're claiming that it's a problem that someone wanting to own the newest tech needs to buy a new laptop, I already explained that even on a desktop, due to the reasons listed above, he would have needed a new motherboard too. Hell, @Donald@HIDevolution actually offered to set up a cycle system. I'm sure he could've swapped his CPU, his GPUs, his RAM, his storage into the KM1 and simply essentially paid for the motherboard and shell. He decided instead to buy a MSI and sell his DM3.

Are you trying to say that you're not sure if people like Prema, Fox, myself, john, phoenix, and svl7 are users or sellers? If so, that is easily rectified. Anybody here with an @companynamehere in their username (like how john is johnksss@ibuypower or meaker is meaker@sager) work for OEMs. Someone like myself is friendly with some sellers but I am by no means working with them, at the least not yet. Prema does work with some, but does not own his own shop.

If you're saying we should get some machines and be allowed to fiddle with and tune and give feedback so sellers can provide the best products, then as a mostly-broke consumer just getting a little work being partnered with gaminglaptopsjunky doing the reviews (of which the first is my upcoming DM3 which I am allowed to purchase and keep), I would say "bring them on!" without a doubt. However, I know not if it will be truly profitable to the sellers, since they don't sell many on their own (especially of their higher end models). But this still won't fix Clevo's primary issues (heatsinks and bad software). I won't complain about a free machine, though. Even a Razer *shudders*

 

OK, being new here, what is wrong with the clevo heat sinks?

Does this mean we cant run an overclocked i7700K hard encoding all day because it will most likely overheat due to heat sink issues ona clevo?

From the extensive reading i have done this last week or two it looks to me Clevo is my best option - trying to decide which (so many).

But now i hear there is a heatsink problem. Ouch.

How big a problem is this?

 

Clevo does not have proper heatsink fit. The design is fine, the individual heatsinks may or may not be fine. It's really foxcomm's issue, but that isn't our problem. That's Clevo's problem to fix.

 

Ok got that, but are we good to go or not? Does HID fix this when a new machine is ordered ?

You say the indivdual heat sinks may or maynot be fine ? Cant take that chance, so how does one deal with this?

 

HID delids desktop CPUs by default and I believe does testing and aftermarket thermal pad arrangement as we on the forum have suggested works best, so you should get a properly working machine from them.

 

If Clevo are well connected and following with the technology owners, they can plan their new models more efficient. It's not reasonable to do monthly changes, it should be consolidated somehow to be available on the market in the right time. So if they know the technology owners plans (Intel-nVidia-AMD-Samsung-etc) they can do their plans accordingly,

Sorry guys for my English, I'm really doing my best to make my point clear, but please correct or educate me if necessary.

 

You're making no sense. Prema said earlier in this thread that KM/KM1 was known about for months. They knew Z270 was coming. These laptops launched in what, september last year? After the Pascal generation, because they had to change the card designs? That's why the DM was changed, because nVidia screwed over people with Pascal and MSI and Clevo had to design their own chips, and Clevo decided to make a standard and get a top-end SLI model in the works; something they lacked (but didn't need to lack) with the DM model.

Then after they adjust to mobile pascal, intel launches Kaby Lake chipset a few months after. So they change to the new Z270 chipset. Needs a revision again. Whenever the successor to Kaby Lake shows up, you can bet your bottom dollar that there'll be a refresh again... from every single manufacturer.

All the OEMs knew Kaby Lake was coming. They prepared HM270 chipsets and CM238 chipsets in advance, with the new (SOLDERED) CPUs so that shipping could take place near to or on launch of Kaby Lake. This is not something one does overnight. I understand you're burned, but in the desktop replacement category, that's intel's fault.

Z97 did not have a chipset upgrade for Broadwell. X79 and X99 did not have a chipset upgrade for Ivy-E and Broadwell-E respectively. Z170 upgraded to Z270, with new features, not mostly superficial, bios-update-fixable ones like Z87 to Z97 had. So, a motherboard change is necessary.

In the future, model changes probably will not be required for new GPUs if MXM designs from Clevo remain the same. Just like the PxxxSM-A models went from Kepler 800M to Maxwell 900M, until Clevo prepared the P6 BGA series thin and light, and the P7 DTR series.

So, I''ll ask once again. What are you asking that is done? Everyone has changed from the 100 series chipset and Skylake soldered CPUs to the 200 series chipset and kaby lake soldered CPUs. Z270 has more PCI/e lanes in its chipset for one more M.2 NVMe drive over the Z170 chipset. There is no way in the world they could have "predicted" or offered Z270 "early".

This is the point I've been making this whole time. The change from DMx to KMx is expected. Their heatsinks and keyboards are an entirely separate issue.

 

Thank you for the explanation, I respect your opinion. My modest opinion that they are all responsible in varying proportions.

 

Is there a chance that this issue will be fix on this KM version?

 

Short answer: it is probable; yes. Either way, it's not a huge deal.

I don't think anyone can say for sure, without discussing it with Clevo/Foxcomm or testing several units themselves, but what I can tell you - based on my experience in engineering/manufacturing - is that manufacturers [Foxcomm, in this case] focus on refining the efficiency of their process to produce a higher percentage of units that conform to specifications in order to save on costs. The quality control becomes better over time, so it's likely that this issue may have been resolved already.

If you do manage to receive a unit with an out of spec heat sink, then you could just purchase another heat sink, send the out of spec unit back, and wait for a reimbursement. Of course, I don't know what your needs are from a device, but I don't think it is worth it to dismiss this machine based on something that can be remedied rather easily/painlessly.

 

I didn't know about the KM1 when I ordered my DM3 bro, no way I would've went with the DM3 had I known that the KM1 is released with an extra m.2 slot and a newer chipset

 

I love refreshes, but if there refreshes are like weeks in between one refresh and the other, I'd like to know what are my options before I make such a big purchase. not release one laptop and make it the best in the world, then surprise the customer with a newer model in 3 weeks, the consumer needs to be aware of all his options. this is not a mobile phone that you can easily sell and get the next best thing.

 

I went with the MSI rather than the KM1 due to me wanting a better keyboard, not because of anything else. I got fed up with my keyboard finally.

 

I knew about the KM1 and still got the DM3 because it added nothing to the table that I would be interested in except for Optane which are only released in July-ish aka vaporware.

The first P870KM1 MP shipped about 7 months after the first P870DM3...
Also you would still be without a system to this day as they are only coming next week, hence there are no end-user in this thread that actually have a KM1, yet.

No one can argue with that brother!

 

Don't give me that look bro!

 

...C'mon... you got the DM3 because it still supports pre-Windows 10..

 

No comment.

 

If you order a delidded CPU with CLU, odds are you'll be okay. Unlike other pastes, CLU is pretty much all-or-nothing, and even a slight misfit will cause issues.

Look at Intel and Nvidia's release timings and you will know exactly when refreshes are coming.

 

Might just become your first KM1 guinea pig

 

Possible, but improbable.

It is a huge deal, and I'll explain why shortly.

It is a problem known for Clevo models for many many years. Even the HM through SM-A designs which had almost no heatsink changes, except the thickness of the heatpipes and two heatsinks for the P3xxxM models between EM & SM. Foxcomm simply makes heatsinks badly. They don't Quality Control properly enough, and Clevo hasn't done a thing about it over over 8 years.

If you purchase from another country, it's a problem. Shipping here is beyond a pain. Just to get warranty work done on my P370SM3 I had to ship my laptop to the US twice in 2014 and re-collect it; it cost me about 500 USD in shipping fees alone, along with a huge downtime. People getting a brand new machine don't want to have to wait a couple of weeks for an RMA process, or to spend extra cash to get a new heatsink which then still may or may not fit properly. People buying MSI and ASUS and even laughable machines like Gigabyte's thin models don't need to worry about heatsink fit for the most part. They just do not. It is difficult to give someone a "grain of salt" recommendation for a Clevo like "so you could buy one cheaper here, but you might get a bad heatsink". People tend to simply go with the safer bet, and I really do not blame them. This is honestly not an issue to be trivialized.

It's Intel and nVidia's pacing. Remember: EVERY laptop updated. If you had purchased a GT73VR 6 weeks ago you'd have it by now and then the Kaby Lake models would be out and you'd be in the same annoyed situation.

Yeah, I know this is why you switched.

 

Is the KM1 coming out next week? I haven't heard anything from Hidevolution on this. To be able to finally replace my i5-760 desktop, and play games other than at minimum settings. The Dream.

 

The first MP shipment is expected to reach importer Stateside, they may need some time to stock up and ship on to end-user...especially with Chinese New Year Celebrations in full swing...

 

We are told they are due to us by February 3rd. However until they are in our warehouse, we never know for sure.

Then the Production begins.

 

What Are Intel’s Optane and 3D XPoint Technologies?
http://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/2757-what-are-intel-optane-and-3d-xpoint-tech

 

Still useless. All too soon http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/in...e-memory-modules-to-partners-for-testing.html

 

Confirmed, delivery Feb. 4

Actually, I much rather you guys do it well than doing it fast. Take whatever time you need.

 

We will have to see costs, it make make more sense to get a pair of nice PCI-E NVME drives for the sake of capacity and still getting silly speeds.

 

Aaaaahhhhhh! Just stumbled over this one! If I had known about this, I would have been a VERY happy camper indeed!

Not that I had not wished you a better price, but owning an original Phoenix (pun on words, ha ha!) would have been a great honor to me! It's like owning a little treasure.

Geez! I have to get over this....

 

I genuinely want to know from you since you're fairly indifferent on these things. Can you yourself notice any difference from being on a Sata 3 SSD vs your raid nvme (file transfer/video editing aside) ?

 

Well I'm selling my P870DM3 now check the sales threads

 

I use a single SM961 1TB, I feel my raided 850 evo 512GB M.2s were slightly snappier but there's not much in it.

 

Remember before I had 2x Samsung 950 Pros in RAID 0 mode? Now I have 2x Samsung 960 Pros in RAID 0 mode.

What I noticed is when I am installing my Adobe Creative Cloud Suite CC 2017, it used to take like 45 seconds to 1 minute for each app to install, that was on my Clevo P9870DM3, now even though I have a BGA / slower CPU on my MSI GT73 VR Titan Pro, each app installs literally in 15 seconds, these SSDs are super snappy!

 

I am tempted to squeeze in another 961 when the budget allows

 

961 or 960? if it's the 961 it's the SM961 right? which is the OEM version

still it'd be awesome man

When you do RAID 0, don't forget to set the following options in IRST and reboot:

 

Just so long as you are not overclocking and risking the machine suddenly shutting off.

 

I know, I had a lot of RAID corruptions on my P870DM3 when I was trying new overclocking settings. One should always find the correct OC before doing RAID

 

two 850 evo in raid 0 via IRST would be snappier because of write cache, also fact that SATA has been around much much longer than NVMe, more time to mature, NVMe SSDs 4k read/write performance dont scale as good as SATA III in raid0s, which is the cause of snappyness when comes to 4k write, however in 4k read PCIE SSD should come out on top if it's a higher end one like 950/960 pro.

btw hows the 7700k at 5ghz in this machine? with delid and everything how hot does it run and at what voltage?

 

@ole!!!

It runs swimmingly well at 5ghz. I'm thinking about making them my 24/7 clocks. Right now I'm using 4.8 GHz for my 24/7 (TS Profile 4) and the system handles it like a absolute champ.
It needs about 1.25v - 1.275 for 5hz.
Ill do a little more testing in some games to nail it down to what it needs for all situations not just benchmarks.

 

I can keep the fan off max with a slight GPU overclock and 4.6Ghz so that's where I am at so far unless something really hungry hits.

 

how far off max? cpu fan ofcourse lol

 

Thank you very much for correcting me; I've worked with some of the worst manufacturers and even they understood that eventually it would cost them a lot of money if they didn't keep suppliers up to spec, especially on dimensionally critical components, so I had assumed no manufacturer was that complacent. Sounds like quite a hassle you had to go through, especially considering the downtime; that is unacceptable, IMO.

So, is this the reason why CLU isn't used for the GPUs despite it being a more efficient interface? Because the heat sink not meeting spec allows a lower viscosity fluid to leak through?

How would we determine if our heat sink isn't up to spec? Are we lucky enough that there any noticeable physical indicators, or are we forced to put everything under load? If load is required, will the temps be outrageous or just marginally higher than expected?

 

Yeah, it IS unacceptable. It's one thing if they all had Dell's NBD warranty where someone shows up at your home the next day ready to repair your stuff... but that's not the case. Companies that will cross-ship to you in the US if you live in the US are better, but still not perfect, especially if you get a laptop and then instantly have to "fix" it.

Yeah. If you have bad contact, that's a problem. Also, excepting Pascal, CLU doesn't benefit GPUs nearly as much as it does CPUs due to a wider thermal dissipation area. However, I did without issue run CLU on my primary GPU for about 2 years without fault, and I also plan to do it on my upcoming DM3 in the future.

Contact paper or a method like putting an extremely thin spread of paste on a component and screwing in the heatsink and then removing the heatsink and checking whether there was a good spread of paste are available. It depends on how drastic the heatsink is badly shaped. @deadsmiley once lapped either his GPU or CPU heatsink in his P170SM (might be P170SM-A) and lost a solid 15°C in temperatures without changing the brand of paste used. The warping can be that bad. @Mr. Fox can tell you he once had a heatsink in his P570WM that literally did not touch the IHS of his CPU. There was a big gap inbetween, and he had to basically fill the thing with IC Diamond to get some proper contact. He needed to get a replacement, it couldn't even be lapped.

 

Yes, it was pretty bad. I lapped mine flat and it works much better.

I think the 15c drop was a total of all the things I did. It's been almost three years and I really don't remember! P170-SMA. I am typing this post on it right now. It's been through a lot. Dropped the power supply on the lid and dented it. A guy stepped on the ethernet cable and pulled it off onto a concrete floor. THAT smashed it up a bit. Still working!

http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/deadsmileys-gpu-cooling-mod-np8278-p170ms-a.756078/

 

The write back option is risky somehow, it crashed my system only one time... but still using it coz it increase the performance even for normal hard drives.

Sent from my Mobile phone.

 

@Phoenix

I concur, it's a dangerous setting especially when OC'd, and of course it's bad to have this enabled when tuning for new OC settings.

If you crash in this write-back cache mode, and don't have a controller with battery backup to recover the data after booting back - it's used to justify the changes left in memory - you will have corrupted data on the disk, which is actually worse than corrupted format info as even a chkdsk may not resolve the corruption.

This setting is the main reason I keep around a Windows installer usb media flash drive - so I can boot on it for the Repair Windows and DOS cmd window features to fix my disk if I die with write-back cache enabled.

I run with it when my computer is tuned and stable, but otherwise I use the data safest setting for RAID0, or even run single disk on the run up to finding safe settings early on.

 

Go for it.
I was thinking of getting another 1TB 960 Evo myself.

 

Guys is raid zero worth it in terms of gaming and architectural design software applications?