The Official Haswell/Z Speculation Thread

I checked, nothing new, except the D13 for now.

 

Next opportunity would be the fall (much like the Duo), so you'd hear something August/Sept for an Oct/Nov release. If nothing then, Spring 2014 most likely.

 

I'm going to ask again, will be see a refresh of the S series this June (or July?) ?

 

I'm going to ask again, will be see a refresh of the S series this June (or July?) ?

 

Ah I see, thanks. The fall is the next opportunity for the Z since the Haswell chips that would be used in a Z successor won't be out until then, right?

EDIT:

Here's all the Haswell chips: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haswell_(microarchitecture)#Mobile_processors

Here's the Z1's i7 vs. the fastest 47W mobile Haswell chip that'll come out in Q3: http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/19...HQ_vs_Intel_Core_i7_Mobile_i7-620M_(BGA).html

The Z1 (EDIT: and SVZ) was 35W and the Haswell chips will be 47W. Isn't that going to make them way hotter, or has Intel improved temperatures? In other words, would a Z successor ever even get a 47W chip? Because if not, a Z successor could just use the Haswell chips that have already come out (the i5's). And if they are going to use a 47W one, what would be the point of waiting to release a Z successor in the fall when most of the chips are available now? (And they could just release another version with the faster chips.) If they don't release it in the fall once again, doesn't that pretty much confirm they're not going to do a Z successor anymore?

Sorry, I'm trying to figure this all out since I'm trying to decide whether to take the plunge and buy an old SVZ in June or try to wait it out until the fall.

 

No. I am basing it on the refresh cycles which happen in Japan approximately every 3 - 4 months give or take.

As has been said many times, there is never a perfect time. The second you buy a laptop it's outdated. If you need a laptop, buy one. If you don't, wait. There is also no guarnatee that what is new will be better or fit your needs. Look at the new Duo - no built-in VGA or ethernet.

The Z could get the 4800MQ or the 4900MQ, but there is a ULV i7 (4650U), so I would expect the top Duo 13 to get that one. The Ivy Bride QM was 45W. The newer 47W doesn't seem like it'd be better for battery life, so I will probably stick to the 4650U if I get something. Interestingly enough, the ULV Ivy Bridge processors are 14W. So claims of 50% more battery life I'd like to see in reality ...

 

He, he. A time will come when the innards of laptops will be dominated by heatsinks, fans and batteries. The electronics are being miniaturised successfully all the time. What's not is the mechanism for getting rid of the heat produced, and the battery that powers it all. So where are we headed - dual 4" fans, dual heatsinks, tiny motherboard with CPU, GPU, chipset, RAM and SSDs all crammed into whatever space that's left?

Its not that the electronics is not getting more power efficient. However, our insane greed for more powerful CPUs and GPUs means that we'll always pick the more powerful (and power hungry) processors over the more power efficient ones. But why? My CPU sits near idle 98% of the time. Apart from the occasional gaming, the only time the system gets stressed is when I'm doing circuit simulations or brute force cracking a zip file whose password I've forgotten.

 

The i7-3612QM in the SVZ is 35W, he's right about that though. There is no comparable Haswell launch chip with the same TDP. Either they go way lower with low voltage dual core chip or 33% higher and a full voltage 47W chip. Or maybe Sony waits until a second round of Haswell chips get launched?

I'd love for them to go with a 47W chip and just include a slightly larger battery. If they include a chip with the GT3/GT3e, they'd eliminate the need of a power hungry dedicated GPU which would close the cap with system TDP. They never put a high end GPU in the Z anyway, if the GT3e is the same as a nvidia 650M, I'd think that would be sufficient for the Z's target audience, esp since more apps are now supporting GPU acceleration on intel's integrated graphics.

 

Haha, I came back to this thread just now after eating dinner and as I started to type my left hinge collapsed. Ohhhh boy. My Z1 is dying.

So uhh, we'll know Sony's full summer lineup in the next few days, right? Not to hijack this thread, but if there's no Z successor, do you guys think it would be wise for me to buy an SVZ off eBay and then maybe sell it in August if a Z successor comes out?

What would a theoretical Z successor even have over the SVZ besides the improved processor chips? Or are we thinking that if they do one, it'll be completely redesigned and touch-based?

 

they actually have a 37w quad, its equipping the razer blade 14, i suspect its the 4702MQ

 

Unless you're doing serious CPU intensive work, CPU wise, the difference won't be much at all. The huge difference is the integrated graphics. HD 4000 in the SVZ is a huge improvement over the HD 3000 in the Z2, but the GT3/GT3e dwarfs the HD 4000, 2.5x the performance increase they say. What this means, is that you wouldn't need the usual mid-range GPU Sony puts in their Z, as it would out perform the SVZ w/PMD attached. Sure, it's not a screaming gaming machine, but the Z never has been. Driver updates would be non-manufacture dependent as you could just go straight to Intel for updates which they've ramped up as of late.

What else can we hope for? I'd say a larger capacity battery and brighter screen. I wouldn't care about going past 1080P on a 13.1" screen though. Honestly I hope they don't screw with the form factor much, as for me, the SVZ is perfect. I don't think I'll ever be able to separate my wife from her indigo Z2.

 

the problem with the 37W quad is that it uses the HD 4600, which while faster than the HD 4000, it's not a huge jump. It's ok in the blade because it uses a great GPU, though. They could go the razer route and use the 37w i7 in conjunction with a dedicated GPU, but for the sake of keeping things thin and light while remaining a CPU juggernaut, I'm hoping they go with the 47W chip.

 

Aside from the slightly larger frame and 900p screen, would you guys say that Razer is superior to the SVZ? Why is that company making a Z-like product when Sony should be?

 

I mainly do video editing in AVID and Premiere and photo editing in Photoshop. The graphics card isn't really responsible for any of that though, right? I mean, it displays the videos and stuff, but the CPU is what runs all of the edits and outputs everything, right? Would a huge graphics upgrade only really matter for gamers? I don't play any games, heh.

 

if it had a quality panel, you didn't "NEED" 1080P (my wife's Z2 has a 900P and I think it looks fantastic) and you didn't mind the extra pound of weight (it's all aluminum, weight penalty right there), I'd say it's a fantastic choice out of the early announced haswell notebooks so far. Unfortunately, review's I've read describe the panel as low quality and easily washed out. Being a current Z owner, I think it would bug the heck out of you since you're used to a good LCD panel. If it only had a decent panel, I'd say not to even bother with the SVZ at this point.

Check out the pics here and compare it to your LCD, it's enough to break a man's heart

Hands on: 14-inch Razer Blade review | Laptops & portable pcs Reviews | TechRadar

 

Actually they do help. Premier and AVID support GPU acceleration. They'll help render faster. Nvidia uses CUDA and AMD uses OpenCL.

Here's an example of the difference.
Benchmark Results: Adobe Premiere Pro CS5 : GeForce GTX 580 And GF110: The Way Nvidia Meant It To Be Played

 

Aww fudge, this makes my decision harder. With that taken into consideration, would you say a theoretical Haswell Z with the new graphics card would blow the SVZ out of the water? Or would it just be a slight increase?

 

No way to really tell until some Haswell OpenCL benchmarks come out. For what you're doing, I'd go ahead and say it'll be slight. You get diminishing returns with GPU acceleration. It's a huge boost having it, but between cards, there's not a huge difference.

Look at these benchmarks for PS
Benchmark Results: Photoshop CS6 : Can OpenGL And OpenCL Overhaul Your Photo Editing Experience?

integrated amd graphics vs full blown 7970. They both crush software rendering, but not a huge difference between them.

 

OK, so assuming 2.5x the performance of the HD4000, this gives me a 3dMark11 score of 1300 for the Haswell GT3e. The NVIDIA 730m (current-gen analog of 330m in the Z1) is at a 3dMark11 of 1900, so 50% faster. Very similar to the current performance difference between the integrated Intel GPU and the 330m in the Z1. I'd say there's still room (and need) for a mid-range dedicated switchable graphics option much as there was in 2010.

The Z1 is perfect; the only thing needed is to up the specs of the SSD and CPU and GPU. I'm not sure about the Z2; I don't care for the idea of a PMD myself.

 

I also wanted to add that something like the Z is the only option for us who DO DO CPU intensive work on the go. As in, churn through large Mathematica notebooks. Yes, increasingly a rare use case, sadly, but worth a premium.

 

note sure where you get those numbers, found these

Intel Core i7-3770K 3.5GHz Ivy Bridge Processor Review - 3DMark Vantage & 3DMark 11 - Legit Reviews

at 2.5x would give it a 3dmark11 score of around 1645 for the GT3e.

730m gets ~1858 according to NVIDIA GeForce GT 730M - NotebookCheck.net Tech

so it's closer to 90%, not 50%.

Again, yes it's not game crusher, but it wasn't built to be one. CPU juggernaut in a tiny package, I consider GPU performance secondary on the Z, but 90% 730m kepler level of integrated graphics would be sweet!

 

Sorry, I'm just a bit confused. You were saying before that all of the software I referenced can make use of the GPU to make things go faster. Is what you're saying in this post is that a theoretical new Z with Haswell vs. the older SVZ would still offer about the same performance boost that comes with using the GPU?

Also, I can't find out anywhere how to compare the GPU in the Z1 to the HD 4000 in the SVZ. All the websites I go to just list the GPU in the i7 620m's as "Intel HD Graphics" with no number. I wonder how much of a boost I'll feel going from the Z1 to an SVZ, and from a Z1 to a theoretical Haswell Z.

 

Yes, saying for what you are saying you do, the SVZ probably won't be much of a downgrade compared to the new hypothetical haswell Z. Clock for clock, Haswell has about a 10% advantage. The new Z could have a much faster graphics setup, but for you, it probably won't amount to much since the HD 4000 in the SVZ already supports OpenCL unlike your current Z. Check out these Haswell benchmarks, the first one relates to you

Results: OpenCL Performance : Core i7-4770K: Haswell's Performance, Previewed

Photoshop with OpenCL, the Haswell chip beats the Ivy Bridge HD 4000 by 11 seconds which beats a non-opencl capable cpu by almost a minute and a half. This is what I was talking about with diminishing returns. 1.5 minute improvement between your current cpu vs SVZ? Worth it, yes. 11 second improvement from SVZ to a Haswell Z? Ehhh.... I would guess not.

the i7 620m has pretty awful integrated graphics, it was before intel got serious about their IGP. Therefore, it doesn't support GPU acceleration. Your switchable nvidia does though.

 

Thanks so much for explaining it to me!

And yeah, this Z does have awful integrated graphics. Almost from month two I've had nothing but problems with Speed mode and overheating. For the past two years I couldn't even hook up an HD video to the TV without the laptop overheating and shutting down after a half hour. The DVD/BR burning doesn't even work anymore and as of several hours ago I'm staring at my screen crooked because the left hinge broke for no reason.

So realistically, I should probably wait for that computer conference thing they're having next week to see if any Haswell-esque Z is announced, and if it's not (which seems to be what we're all anticipating), I guess I can go look for an SVZ to buy? I'm going to Japan in July so I guess I could try to buy it there new... or maybe I should try for eBay instead.

The only thing I'm worried about is if they release some sort of Z successor that is touch-screen capable / tablet-like and offers a bunch of cool new features. That would really stink if they radically redesign it and I bought the SVZ only a few months prior. XD I'm in film school right now studying directing and having touch-screen capabilities for drawing storyboards would be pretty cool. But for some reason I'm starting to think we're not going to get anything Z-esque like that. Maybe the Z is really dead and won't come back.

EDIT: Oh shoot, forgot that this Z has the nVidia card for speed mode (I forgot since I can't use it anymore). How does that compare to the 4000? Does that change this discussion at all when considering the nVidia card?

 

Well, in theory, this is like it should be, if we talk about powerful Z:

 

First review of Haswell vs. Ivy Bridge for laptops Review Intel Haswell Processors - NotebookCheck.net Reviews. It's not Sony, but should give you an idea of what to expect.

 

maybe I read it wrong, but it seems that haswell is not such a huge change over ivy bridge, perhaps in the GPU yes but not in cpu?

 

For the non-ULV, pretty much how I read it. I think even with the ULV, the performance difference outside of GPU won't be huge.

However, at least with ULV if you believe Intel's slides (see Intel sets Haswell launch for June 4th, details bold battery life claims), you will get more and I believe that since they did redesign things from the ground up there. Bottom line is that if performance is your thing, these new processors won't be a revelation outside of maybe some graphics stuff. For battery - especially with ULV - that seems to be the sweet spot.

 

oh no dear boy, I just pointed out that they do have a 37w cpu, Im not even speculating what the new Z will be or even if there will be a Z, or how would it be, not mention when

 

Why isn't a 37W listed anywhere I look with other Haswell CPUs besides in that one laptop? Do they often have custom ones that aren't mass produced or something?

 

no its called 4702MQ for socketed and 4702HQ for BGA

it was leaked months ago, though I wasnt sure what the tdp was, I speculated based on ivy nomenclature that it was 37w, though there was no way to be sure, now if you look a the haswell thread you will see a lot of info from the launch so far

 

So do we find out on Monday what all of Sony's laptops will be for Computex?

 

This actual hands-on from Forbes has Skyrim as "barely playable" on low settings with the Haswell integrated GPU:

Crunching The Numbers: Can Intel's Haswell Graphics Run Your Favorite Video Games? - Forbes

Whereas Skyrim is quite playable on medium on my unmodified 330m Z1.

To answer your question, I got my HD4000 numbers from the same notebookcheck site you quote for the 730m:

Intel HD Graphics 4000 - NotebookCheck.net Tech


Therefore, I submit that Intel's claim of a serviceable GPU that can compete with something like a 730m are vastly overinflated... I'd wager that Skyrim on the Haswell integrated GPU is going to be a far worse thing than Skyrim on a 730m---not a 90% proposition at all.

Bring back the Z with the switchable built-in GFX!!

 

That was my gut feel too. The Intel GPU might be good enough for HD video playback and Windows effects like Aero, but real gaming performance would still leave a lot to be desired.

Why aren't nVIDIA and ATi fighting back with a power saving mode that exactly mimics the performance and power consumption of the Intel GPU? Let the world know that there is no difference between switching power modes on the discrete GPU itself and switching between Intel and discrete. Let each do what it is good at.

 

Hmm the only reason I would upgrade is if the displays on the new sony's are better than the current S I have, otherwise I don't see any point in upgrading.

 

Wait, so is the HD 4000 / new GPUs in Haswell weaker than the nVidia that was in the Z1?

 

That hands on from Forbes isn't the gpu we are talking about in this thread. They used a chip that has an HD4600, which is the new low end gpu from Intel. The Iris Pro which we ARE talking about is 2x better.

Actual review from an actual tech site here:
AnandTech | Intel Iris Pro 5200 Graphics Review: Core i7-4950HQ Tested

Some games it matches or exceeds an overclocked GT 640M, other games it loses decisively. Looks like the wide range in performance are probably driver issues for now. Either way, it matching or exceeding at times the system with an overclocked 640M while having around one third the TDP is what I really like.

the Z has always had a lower middle class GPU, not sure while the sudden desire to turn it into an alienware system. I want a great LCD panel and top end CPU while being as thin and light as it has been. Good GPU has always been a nice perk with the Z. I think Iris Pro would be great, esp bc Intel now supports OpenCL, with more and more apps supporting GPU acceleration with Intel's line. If Sony wanted to do another PMD with SLi'd high end nvidia gpus, I would happily accept thorough :-D

 

Actually, any of the Z displays since 2010 run circles around the best S13 display they have ever had, so if display is that important to you, any Z will feel like a new world of display category. They're not even in remotely the same league, never have been. The S15s, on the other hand, have had excellent IPS screens that, while lacking the color breadth of the Zs are otherwise equal or superior on other screen specs. The huge exception here is that the earlier S15s had the infamous "organgegate" problem, whereby these panels (same as used in equal vintage HP Envy 15) could not reproduce reds or purples with any accuracy. Corrections were made sometime in 2012/13 but one still has to be very careful as some of the newest SVS15s off the line have the older orangegate screen. To my knowledge the only way to know if you have the fixed one is to fire it up.

The things that make the S13s standout from the Z's have been retaining the internal d-gpu after the z went to the PMD approach, full user serviceable RAM and SSD and higher RAM capacity (16GB vs 8). Besides the vastly inferior screens (we're talking incredibly narrow color gamut and terrible contrast levels, making all colors seem washed out and blacks look gray. Also the S13s were not available with quad core i7s, just dual core and the S's retained the optical drive,which meant it had capacity for using its bay for an additional Hdd or SSd while the Z dropped the DVD drive with the Z2 and with no user upgradeable SSD, you were limited for life to what your Z came out of your original order. Still and all, the S13s have always been excellent values and if you use the laptop's own screen only when traveling and hook up to a desk monitor at "home base" you get a lot more versatility and value with the S vs. the Z. Also, to my knowledge, the S is stil in production while there have been no new or refurb SVZ13's for many months.

 

Can't agree more

 

Well, if someone dreams about North Cape Z, here is a bit of, though complicated. Recently we disscused its possiblity. Now it is reality: AnandTech | The ASUS Transformer Book Trio: Atom + Haswell, Android + Windows 8

I know, this is not we are expecting. But who knows, Sony may embark on something similar.

 

Anyone know when we're going to hear from Sony at Computex?

 

I have a feeling Sony might not show anything? perhaps just an update to the T series? and instead opt for a stand alone show to introduce their new laptops? I hope I am wrong.

 

Not quite North Cape, but very similar to what I was proposing a few pages back.

(The presentation says: Android Jelly Beam )

 

Hey guys, I think the new sony vaio Z is online.
https://shop.sony.de/shop/VAIO-Notebook-PC/S-Serie-13-15

Its called: Sony Vaio Pro
It lacks the power of the Z-Series but it looks nearly identical.

 

No, that's the SVP we've been discussing in this thread. Not a Z successor. Looks more like a T successor.
Any future Z must be faster than the current one, and that's simply not it.

 

I see the Vaio S on that link, did they remove the pro?

 

yes, this is P....





FullHD is all that we have in memory of Z (Just a joke, guys...)

 

No new specs other than what you posted earlier Aiga?

 

Hmm the lid looks rather thick. hmm

 

Qwaarjet,
screens are FullHD. Likely, triluminous (?) ones... HD Graphics 4400.... 512 SSD on 13" models as an option.... "Exmor" HD 0.9 MP, bzzzzzzz....

A sort of a hybrid between T and Z as we know them... I feel we need something like Vaio Elite, later.... (2nd joke...)