Vaio Flip: the Yoga hinge comes to Sony

Well, Vailo Flip (or Thinkpad T440S, or Zbook 14, for that matter) is NOT a full-sized laptop. Even the Flip 15 only weight 4.6 pound, of which 0.6 pound (or more) would be used for touchscreen and convertible mechanism, leaving less than 4 pounds for actual "laptop" part.

 

Yeah, that's full-sized nowadays. Hate to break it to you but the Razer Blade is 4.1 pounds and it's a fully specced out gaming machine. The Alienware 14" which I would consider a BEAST of a laptop is just around 6 pounds. Many of the 15.6" Clevo/Sager desktop replacement laptops with crazy specs are in the 6lb-7lb range, so 4lb-5lb for a non-desktop replacement full-sized 15" laptop is definitely what I would consider normal.

 

Razor Blade, like old Vaio Z or ASUS UX51VZ, is an exceptional laptop with exceptionally high price tag. I don't think anyone here expect Flip 15 to be priced anywhere close to these laptops. Alienware 14, 15.6 Clevo/Sager are way heavier (the difference between 6 and 4 is huge, and you shouldn't be looking at thin and light laptops if 6.5lbs laptops are portable -- besides, why would anyone want 14' laptop that weighs more than 6lbs?). They definitely are not in the same category, it is ridiculous to even compare Flip with these niche laptops -- not to mention build quality of Sager/Clevo tend to be rather poor especially considering their price. Many 15inch "somewhat of thin and light" -- such as HP's old Envy sleekbook (which was pretty underpowered, by the way) weigh between 4.5 and 5 lbs. With complex convertible mechanism and its touchpanel with digitizer, Flip's weight is pretty impressive, if anything.
Hell, even Samsung Series 9 15' weigh more than 3.6lbs -- it has ULV CPU while having no dGPU or convertible mechanism, and likely being more expensive than Flip 15!

 

If you look at the specs and CPU you can see that Sony does not intend to make the Flip a all in one power horse, it should be more like a mobile lightweight normal workplace. Next point is the stylus and digitizer.. means more like for writing (business) and art resolutions. The flip is perfect for me. I'm searching for a lightweight stylus included ultrabook for university. Since the DUO 13 disappointed me with all the WLAN and buzzing noise problems, I really looking forward to the flip.

 

The razer blade starts at $1800, and has pretty good specs even on the lowest model. The prices I've seen quoted for the 15" flip are $1400-1900 (note that the 15" starts at 1200 euro, so likely will start around 1200-1400 dollars for the cheapest model in the US?), and I don't think it's a stretch to assume a fully-specced out Flip will be similar to the base model of the Blade in price, so no, it's not ridiculous to compare the two when the price differential is likely to be fairly small (10-20%). Now, at .5 pounds heavier the Flip would also have a much slower GPU and much worse CPU. Sony's expertise is in making things small (see the Z, RX100, etc. Look up any article about their core competencies). I would expect them to be breaking ground making things smaller and lighter, since they have very clearly done this over and over for years in the past in their laptop and camera lines, as well as even more fundamental products (i.e. the first walkman). So yes, I think the Blade is a perfect comparison to show that, as far as bang-for-buck goes, the Flip is extremely disappointing.

Look, true ultraportables these days are quite small. The Pro line is in the 2.1-2.4 pound range. On the other end, the heaviest 15.6" laptops are in the 6-8 pound range. So yes, I would say a laptop in the 4-5 pound range would be considered "normal", as it is right in the middle. What are you trying to say a normal, full-sized laptop would weigh? More than 5 pounds and less than 6? I think you're splitting hairs. It is not a thin and light laptop. I would maybe say (for 15" machines) that 3.5-4.4 pounds could be considered ultraportables (and I personally wouldn't consider anything above 4.1/4.2 unless it was truly extraordinary in terms of specs or thickness, but I understand my standards are stricter than others'), 4.5-6 would be considered "normal", and 6-8 would be considered a desktop replacement.

As a relevant example, the old Samsung Series 9 15" laptop, which is an ultraportable by any and every definition, was 0.58" thick and weighed 3.6 pounds. That is a pound more than my 13" Z, which I think is a reasonable weight gain given the additional screen size. This Flip, at 4.6 pounds, is similar to the previous Fit line in portability which was very much a full-sized laptop; I'll give you that it is certainly towards the lower end of what would be considered full-sized, but it is not an ultraportable by any means. If they dropped half a pound it would probably qualify. In my mind you cannot get appreciably above 3 pounds in a 13" or 4 pounds in a 15" and call it an ultraportable. The cheapest Dell Inspiron 15" laptop with touch screen is around 1.0" thick and weighs 4.95 pounds. I believe the 15" fit is supposed to be around 0.7-0.8 inches thick? So yes, it is appreciably thinner than the Dell but not appreciably lighter (only 7% lighter, 20-30% thinner).

 

The Razer Blade also has no touchscreen, no stylus support, no innovative new convertible hinge (with associated R&D to recoup), and a 900p screen. The Flip 15 has a 28800x1600 IPS touchscreen and said convertible hinge. So I'd expect that, for any given price point, the Sony would have fewer resources put into high-performance CPUs and GPUs.

 

^ And cheapest touchscreen Inspirion 15 also uses ULV CPUs, no dGPU option, no digitizer support, and does not have complex hinge mechanism to make it convertible. Series 9 15" has no dGPU option, no touchscreen with digitizer support, no hinge mechanism, and is likely to be more expensive than Flip 15". Even Razer Blade 14 (which I agree is an impressive machine) has smaller screen which also is mediocre. Flip 14 has same weight as RB14, and it has things RB14 does not have (touchscreen with digitizer support, convertible mechanism) as well.

To be honest, I think many posters here cherry pick elements they like from each laptop, and complain how no laptop have them all. Of course, we always have to make compromises somewhere! If you like full-fledged gaming GPU and full-speed CPU, sure, just get Ailenware 14" -- just don't complain of its bulk and weight, its "pimped" appearance, poor battery life, and its lack of convertible mechanism.

 

That's certainly a fair point, except the CPU in the Blade actually costs $15 LESS than the CPU in the maximum configurable Flip 15.

True, but the Dell costs like $400 too, compared to ~$1500. The 15" SS9 is on-par with the very high end of configurable Flip 15s, so yes price should be taken into consideration but again, it's not a completely ridiculous comparison. It costs about the same as the Blade and I've already shown the pricing there isn't too far off. I agree that the touchscreen adds weight due to extra glass but personally I don't want one, so I have a hard time giving them credit for putting it in (but that's just me). Yes, the hinge will add weight, but half a pound? Remember that the Sony 15" S series, while it did not have a second hinge or a touchscreen, still weighed 4.3 pounds and had full GPU and CPU options.

I do agree some posters are in a fantasyland, fortunately I actually own my perfect laptop which has exactly the features I want and nothing I don't: the Z3, and it does indeed exist and is certainly physically possible. I'd kill for an upgraded version with an equivalent Haswell proc and nothing else changed. Unfortunately, it's been discontinued and I'm having a heck of a time finding something that is an upgrade this cycle - everything I see seems to be a downgrade despite my computer being over a year old, while most of the things I am comparing it to have not even been released yet. I in fact have no desire for a dGPU at all, but I was extremely interested in the Flip 13, even given the higher weight, until I heard it would have ULV procs just like all of Sony's other 6 current lines of computers (actually, 5 out of 6 I suppose). I really can't understand their complete and utter obsession with ULV CPUs, even in full-sized laptops (and desktops!). Still waiting on the Z replacement. Heck, still waiting on the S replacement, or any real laptop from Sony. Not just Sony but the whole market seems to be obsessively racing to the bottom with respect to price and features. Reminds me of netbooks a few years ago.

Put simply, last gen there were 2-3 options for laptops in the 12"-13" range with full-power procs that were less than 3 lbs. Today there are zero. Certainly the engineering abilities have not vanished, so these companies are knowingly and intentionally not offering these devices despite the fact that they could certainly exist, and did just a year ago. Whether it's completely market/demand based or if there are some complex technical issues with full-power Haswell I truly do not know. But what is really frustrating is even the normal-sized computers with full-power procs have been discontinued and replaced by even more ULV options. Not sure what is going on but it sure isn't going to get me to spend money on a computer any time soon.

Anyways, to get back on topic somewhat, I think the idea of the Flip was quite good but the execution was poor. It seems like it can't decide what it wants to be... it's big, with a nice screen (talking about 15"), but the processor is slower than the Duo and the graphics only slightly better. It's not portable enough to compete with the Pro, but the specs are roughly identical (talking about 13" version here) despite costing more than the Pro! Yes, the Pro does not fold flat, but the Duo does (and is faster to boot), while the Pro instead is way lighter and more portable. I guess I don't see who would want it over the Pro or Duo except perhaps a small niche market of people who need a 15" laptop with graphics but only need a 735M for their needs. There is a small margin between the best integrated Haswell graphics and the 735M, so I can't imagine there are too many people who need a 735M, but don't need anything more powerful than that, but truly can't get by with integrated (for their laptop). I think this device either needed to be more powerful (i.e. more like an S replacement than a Fit replacement) or more portable (but if it were more portable it would basically be competing directly with the Duo/Pro, and it would not win that battle as those are both very well-thought-out devices). Perhaps it will do well, but I think either it will do poorly, or it will do well but ize sales from their other lines. It doesn't bring anything new to the table as far as I can see.

However, I am indeed interested to see how the Tap 11 (and to a lesser extent the quad-core atom Flip 11) do as super-ultra-portables. Obviously they borrowed heavily from Microsoft's Surface with the Tap 11, but I have somewhat more faith in Sony to get it right.

 

Bet it's a lot less expensive to design and build an effective cooling system for a thin-and-light laptop with a ULV CPU than one with a quad-core CPU. The total package, including cooling system, etc is going to be more expensive with the quad-core setup, even if the quad-core CPU on its own in a baggie is a bit cheaper than the ULV CPU on its own in a baggie. So yes, fitting a quad-core CPU into the Flip 15 could not be done without either increasing its price or taking out other expensive features such as the hinge, the touchscreen, or the high-res panel.

 

The Dell "start" at 4.95lbs, which means its touchscreen variants will weight more -- Samsung Chronos 7 gained about 0.4 pounds (from 5.2 to 5.6), when they turned it into ATIV book 8 and gained touchscreen. And it doesn't even support digitizer, nor complex hinge mechanism. So, much more expensive (of course, it has way better screen and much better build) Flip 15 weigh much less than cheap Dell. It sounds about right to me. And that hinge is going to add weight, especially if they want to make it strong enough (which I am sure they do). Still, I am not complaining about hinge, as it actually makes touchscreen useful (otherwise, a touchscreen on a laptop is a dead weight).

To be honest, I can see why every major laptop benders are jumping into ULV bandwagon for anything below 17" -- it greatly help with battery life, noise, and heat, all of which are highly important for typical use cases of laptops. On the other hand, the vast majority of use cases do not require full-voltage CPUs -- today's ULVs are fast enough even for for pretty much everything. And for specific cases where speed is actually that important (aside from bragging right) -- say, serious number crunching -- it is unlikely they would even use laptops to begin with. For the rare cases where you want laptops for serious number crunching, there are mobile workstations.

A friend of mine, who used to be the devout supporter of V6 engines in car, recently got 4 cylinder Chevy Cruze eco. When I asked him what happened to V6, he told me that V4 is good enough and mileage is much more important now -- pretty much the same thing is happening in laptops, as well. Lower power consumption is much more useful than that quad-core power that 95% of people would never make use of. And I am sure there are lot of auto enthusiasts complaining about demise of big engines, too.

 

First, a lot of your argument seems to be based on calling it a thin-and-light; I addressed this in my previous post. It is thin-ish, I'll give you that, but it is not light. The FITs are not marketed at all as portable or thin-and-light, so I don't see why you continue to refer to them as such. They are squarely in the middle of the pack with regards to weight and only slightly thin.

Anyways, this particular part is a 37W. The S had 35W procs, hell even the Z did and that was much lighter and thinner. Yes, it requires a bit more work designing the cooling but it's a big laptop with a big frame, there is plenty of space. Their same engineers have done a lot more in a lot less space, even in the past two years. You have to remember we are literally talking about a computer that is essentially TWO Pro 13s, in weight if not quite in volume (197% the weight of the pro, 180% the volume), but has very nearly identical specs (same processor, one additional RAM slot, the speakers are perhaps a bit bigger). AND it costs more. And the only major additional part is a graphics card, and also a higher res screen (which likely draws more power but doesn't take any more space). So yes, I agree it would be a little more work, but it seems like they barely did any work at all on this one, certainly not on par with their usual designs (see Z3, Pro, Duo, even the Tap 11). They fit similar parts (35W rather than 37W) in the Z and the S, they sure can do it here. Obviously I am not aware of the specific design tradeoffs they were forced to make, and I am sure battery life was a concern, especially with the high res panel which likely draws a lot.

However, I think a lot of this hinges (ha ha ha) on the price. If it was priced similarly to the Fit (and I am referring here to comparing entry level models, so no high res screen, etc.) then I would pretty much have no argument, as it would be a straight up improvement. I thought the Fit was pretty bad, but it was also an extremely cheap entry-level laptop so you can't expect much. The Fit E started at $550 I think? You can't expect much for that. The 15" regular Fit starts at $799 for the base model (I'm ignoring the Fit E since it doesn't compare to the Flip). It looks like the 15" base Flip will start between $1200-1400, which is a 50-75% increase in price. It's also quite similar to the prices for the base models of the S series when they were still being sold. Given the price increase, the standards increase accordingly, and I'm seeing a Fit machine which has been upgraded with the current-gen proc and a (let's admit it) semi-gimmicky hinge added (remember, base model, so no high-res screen). That doesn't justify the large price hike. Yes, by the standards of the Fit, this would be thinner, and lighter, and a perfectly acceptable refresh. But by those same standards, it ought to cost ~$800, and it doesn't, so it doesn't make sense to compare the two. Comparing this machine to the S, which it replaces in price point ($1200-1800), I find it extremely lacking.

Put more plainly, yes it absolutely costs more to design cooling for a higher-TDP chip. But we are paying more - a LOT more. So why aren't we getting anything for it?

 

That weight was listed on a touchscreen-only variant (i.e. there was a list of pre-configured models of Inspiron 15, some of which had touch, for which each model was given a weight). I assume it is correct although of course I don't own one so I couldn't say. As for "Flip 15 weighs much less than cheap Dell", as I calculated in my previous post it is 7% less. Not exactly earth-shattering improvement.

Regarding cars, I have heard this argument before, but there is a fundamental issue it fails to address; roads (or really, the laws of physics) don't change. A 300 hp engine 50 years ago would go the same speed down the same stretch of road that a 300hp engine would today. In that sense, the goal is really to get the same power while increasing fuel economy. I'm sure a four cylinder engine today can generate more HP and torque than four cylinder engines in the past could. However, software is increasingly becoming more complex and requiring more power to operate; running a web browser five years ago would have taken a lot less processing power and RAM than it does today. Processor technology is not being benchmarked against a static metric, such that each generation slowly gets better and more efficient (the way cars are). The target is constantly moving as software advances and requires more power. So yes, today's ULV procs may have improved from past years', but so has the software it needs to run.

Also, I don't really see what monumental event has happened and suddenly made battery life in computers so important. I have in fact noticed more and more power outlets popping up in public places (airports have more now than 10 years ago, for example) so I really can't see why the sudden need for super long battery life. It really doesn't help me if the battery lasts 12 hours if everything I want to do takes longer (compilation, rendering, de/compression, etc.) In fact, if the computer is faster then in some cases I need less battery power to finish my tasks (although, realistically most of the heavy duty tasks will be performed while I'm plugged in anyways, so I'm not really going to push that argument too far).

Personally, there are power outlets almost everywhere I use my laptop, and even my Z with battery care function enabled at 50% lasts two hours which is more than enough to get me from one power outlet to the next. If I'm going on a long plane ride I'll disable battery care and pop on my sheet battery and my laptop will last 9 hours, but that's the exception rather than the norm. My computer is probably plugged in 70% of the time I use it, and another 20% of the time it's not actually plugged in but I am still near a power outlet (and just haven't plugged it in). I would guess a lot of people are in that second category where they are often near power outlets even if they aren't actively using them. I can see the appeal of not having to lug a power cable/transformer brick around, but I'm not going to sacrifice performance to gain that slight convenience.

 

I need a long battery life and im glad I will get about 8-10h (I think, cause it has the same specs like the DUO). Waited years for a good battery life that last over a day cause I dont have the chance to charge it every time I use it. If you need your laptop to render its obvious that you need a better CPU but for a lot of ppl normal office work is enough (like me, for other things I use my desktop PC).
But I have to agree with you about the 15" version. An ULV CPU is a bit too less in a 15" machine.

 

I agree that Sony should cater for the market of those that need powerful laptops, and I'd love to have a Z succcessor. However, I'd go back to the point I made before that typical consumers won't notice the difference in speed - they don't do that much of "compilation, rendering, de/compression, etc.". I doubt they will notice that the processor for a ULV is a bit slower than a full-voltage processor of a few years ago. In fact, if it has a faster SSD drive, as well as Window 8, it'll boot up faster and may generally seem faster. And they will notice the difference if the PC is now thinner, lighter, and runs a lot longer on batteries. That's why I think all manufacturers are moving that way.

We each have our own needs (I need a VGA and RJ45, and these seem to be being phased out, while I'm perfectly happy with ULVs), but they are rarely the needs of consumers as a whole. I'm sure Sony and others have done their market research.

 

See, that's the thing, the Duo and the Pro both have exceptional battery life and are truly ultraportables, and the Pro price is almost exactly the same as the Flip (both start around $1200 for the 13" I believe). I feel like Sony has perfectly catered to this market already, they don't need any more laptops in the same area, especially ones that are worse than their current offerings (which, frankly, I think are exceptionally well-designed machines, although they don't really meet my needs). In fact, I can't really see any reason to go for the 13" Flip over either the Pro 13 or Duo 13. As I said in a previous post, I think the Flip will either be a dud or will do okay but at the cost of cannibalizing the sales of their other lines, since its focus seems to be identical, specs are identical, price is identical. Other than the hinge, and being much larger and fatter, I don't see the difference. Ports?

Yes, the 15" does have a videocard and, while its performance is a minimal upgrade from integrated, I can certainly see how that is a draw (and also, the optional high-res screen) so it does bring something extra to the table, but that ULV CPU hamstrings it. I feel like most things you would need a dedicated graphics card for you would also want a full-power processor for as well.

See, I hate having a laptop AND a desktop. I used to do it and it was such a hassle. Currently I use my Z as a desktop at home (hooked up to monitor, kb, mouse, speakers, ethernet) and as a laptop on the road. Having to constantly transfer files back and forth, worry about leaving things on the wrong computer, etc. really annoys me and is a waste of my time. I've been lucky up until now to have ultraportables available which are powerful enough to fulfill all my computing needs. Suddenly this cycle they have all disappeared, and it's quite strange and more than a little frustrating.

Again, I understand that these component choices increase battery life but I really find it hard to believe it's suddenly such a concern given the fact that in recent years free public power has become drastically more prevalent, not less. Even newer airplanes now have actual 3-prong outlets in every row. Anyways, I understood (although was not happy) when they phased out the Z and replaced it with the Ultrabook Pro... the Z was expensive and many people didn't need that much power in such a small frame. The Pro is even smaller and lighter, and a lot cheaper (so more people can afford it), but less powerful. It appealed to a much broader market. However, phasing out various F(x) series and the S series, which were all large full-frame laptops (the S was bordering on a thin-and-light, and could perhaps be considered one despite its impressive performance), and replacing them with the Fit and the Flip which literally have the same, or worse, specs/components as the ultraportable Duo/Pro (except added videocards which, again, just barely outperform integrated) while being twice as large still surpasses the limits of my comprehension. Again, if the Flip were significantly cheaper I would see the point, but it's not at all cheaper, in fact it costs about the same.

I understand that portability has become a big factor, and I understand having two ultraportable lines (Pro/Duo) especially with one having as novel a form-factor as the Duo does. But all four laptop lines exclusively aiming at portability and battery life? Surely they have to release a real laptop eventually.

 

Panasonic Let's Note CF-LX3 may do the trick ... and the premium has the 4600 CPU. It's only missing a touchscreen, but to some that is a good thing.

Are you still ranting about this? We get it. You want a Z successor. The ULV hampers *some* tasks. Let's put this in proper perspective. With the CPU bursts, my ULV Pro 13 - outside of the lack of 16GB of memory - is snappier than my Pansonic J10 was with a full i7. Not everyone's bottleneck is CPU or graphics.

 

I could never use a Z2 as a desktop or a dual-purpose machine: It was way too weak-sauce when brand new, let alone now. I basically used the PMD's solely as a charging dock. I would *much* rather have a machine with adequate power purely for the road and as long a runtime as can be squeezed out of as light a frame as possible for the features offered - and ideally, without the compromises of the Z*. The Pros look far more attractive to me from that viewpoint, though I still probably won't be buying one.

*And I was totally right in that I said they'd be abandoning the Light Peak connector within one design iteration. I'd expect nothing less of the old Sony. Let's hope this-decade-Sony is smarter.

 

Since you can't see any reason to prefer the Flip over the other two, I'll give you mine.

I'm an engineering student looking for a convertible that allows me to write maths and physics notes with a digitizer, so when the Duo 13 was announced I was thrilled. It ended up being heavily overpriced in Europe, though (€1500 for the base version, about 2000 dollars). With a budget of €1300 at most, I began waiting for the beginning of the new accademic year in October, hoping for a price drop. My backup plan was to get the Pro and a Wacom tablet, altough it wasn't very appealing to me.

Then IFA came. The Flip 13 was introduced, at a price affordable for me and almost equal to that of the Pro (€1200 for i5,8GB vs €1160 for Pro 13 with i5, 8GB and touch screen, add €40 for the Wacom and the price is the same), and a weight difference so small that it doesn't really matter (about 200 grams). That puts it above the Pro, at least for my usage scenario.

Now, regarding the Duo 13, I would get it anyways if there happened to be a price drop, but with the introduction of the Flip I don't think there will be one anytime soon, and I've been waiting since the beginning of last year to get a laptop for university use. It all began with the Surface Pro, but after waiting for it to come out in Europe, Haswell convertibles had started to show up (first of all, the Duo 13).

To sum it up, why choose it over the Pro? It has a digitizer and a convertible form factor, even if it's not as sleek. Why choose it over the Duo? It's way cheaper, at least here in Europe.
I can understand being against Sony for not making a full powered laptop, but I think you cannot blame the Flip for not being one. As you see, it can be the perfect machine for some people.

Now I've only got to hope that the price shown in Sony Germany is the same for the rest of Europe and that it doesn't have any WiFi issues...

 

I understand that portability has become a big factor, and I understand having two ultraportable lines (Pro/Duo) especially with one having as novel a form-factor as the Duo does. But all four laptop lines exclusively aiming at portability and battery life? Surely they have to release a real laptop eventually.[/QUOTE]

Regarding four lines...

I received a call from Sony that the Vaio Duo that I ordered has been finally shipped (payment done 12th Aug), and they notified me that they cannot send me the protective case due to the fact they have stopped manufacturing them.

Would it be correct to presume that vaio fit flip will be replacing at least one line within the coming weeks.

My best guess is that they will replace them all due to the fact that all of them have problems with unusable wifi and they are using aluminium instead of carbon fibre.

It would be difficult to think of stop manufacturing accessories unless they will stop assembling the new lines.

They haven't bought new assembly lines recently, right?
And they need to assemble the new ones somewhere.

It would just be the most logical step. Just stop assembling faulty line and replace it with something that works just fine.

Also for example with fit flip 13" you get the best of both worlds vs pro and duo 13.

Same goes for currently existing fit line

Just my two cents


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

 

Sorry, not ranting, although you are of course free to your own opinion. I was simply raising the question of whether Sony needed another identically specced and priced longevity-focused computer given that it already has two good options. And no, I was certainly not expecting a Z successor. I was, however, expecting this large-ish laptop to be more like an S successor given that it was announced directly after that model was discontinued. I am just questioning Sony's rationale behind having so many models that fit the exact same niche while ignoring all other market segments.

Interesting. I didn't own the Z2 but I've been quite happy with my Z3. And from your comments about "weak-sauce", I don't see how you would like the pro better with its ULV dual-core compared to the full-wattage quad-core in my Z3, unless it's solely battery life and not power that you are looking for.

That's interesting, I'm not too familiar with European pricing but I guess if it is truly 300 euros less than the Duo that is a decent amount of savings (20%). Here the Pro is $1200, Duo is $1400, and it sounds like the Flip will be somewhere in between. But it sounds like, for you, if the Duo was cheaper you would be interested in that as well, since the digitizer for taking notes is the main draw. So, while the Flip's pricing is in line with the Pro, it does have an additional feature (the digitizer), and while the Duo has the digitizer, it costs more.

Now that is actually a very interesting piece of information. If the Pro and/or Duo were not being kept it would certainly leave a lot more room for the Flip. Personally I could see the Flip as a Duo replacement, and I would be a bit surprised if the Pro was discontinued. Given the similar pricing and specs that does make a lot more sense than having three extremely similar models in the lineup.

Are the Wifi issues really that serious? I had heard they were fairly minor and only affecting some people. Regarding aluminum vs carbon fiber, I would assume that the aluminum would in fact interfere more than the carbon fiber would (remember the iPhones used to have a plastic cutout in their aluminum backplate to aid wireless signal reception) although I'm by no means an expert. But, it still seems like the Pro has better design and is lighter (possibly the weight difference is due to the hinge mechanism) than the Flip. I would hope they could salvage that line and fix the Wifi issues without discontinuing it completely.

 

So, any idea when this is coming out in the USA?

 

If I was a betting man, these would probably ship around 10/18 when Windows 8.1 is generally available everywhere. The same with machines like the Duo 11 and Tap 20 last year with the Win8 launch. I would be surprised if these did not ship with 8.1 as the OS.

 

Sony already does this in nearly every other product line they sell - cameras and smartphones being the logical two categories to bring up here. A NEX-3 (whatever the latest incarnation of the low end NEX is) is cheaper than the RX100, yet the RX100 sells. They've got the proper Alpha line. They've got plain ol' CyberShots. They have that new snap on camera for smartphones. They don't care about eating their own. This is part of the reason why Nikon and Canon are floundering with lines like the EOS-M and 1 - they're afraid of cannabilizing their own sales. Sony is just putting product out that may appeal to certain market segments even if on the outside (and inside) they are nearly identical. Seems to be working fairly well.

I might even agree with you if nearly every other manufacturer put better procs in their higher end laptops in their lines. Without fail they're all putting ULVs in. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but when even Lenovo is doing it, that says something. The X240 is a bigger step back and let down than any of the Sony machines combined. While I don't want it, at least on the higher end Flips you can get > 8GB of memory. So they're not totally killing that.

None of this looks like it is changing any time soon. I stopped complaining about it years ago since I always had to make tradeoffs to get small and light. My first UMPC was the Vaio U70P ( ƒ\ƒj[»•iî•ñ b VAIO | type U - love how Sony maintains these old sites) with a whopping 1.0GHz processor, 512MB (!) of memory, and wait for it ... 20GB HDD. Still own it and like the machine, but clearly never gets used much these days. The fact I can get 8GB (would prefer 16), up to a 512GB SSD, and a processor that can handle virtualization in basically a 2lb package was even a bit of a pipe dream when I first got the VGN-G. Today's ULVs and ultraportables are only shades lower than their bigger (and more battery eating) bretheren. BAck then there was a bigger delta with the ULVs and full procs.

 

Yeah -- I agree that Z series was a product of time, the time when the performance delta between ULV and full-power processor was larger (do you remember how slow the original MBA was?), and the price delta between ULV chips and full-power chips are larger. For their power consumption level, ULV Haswells' performance is pretty impressive -- especially for single-threaded applications (where they get the biggest benefit from TurboBoost -- and ULV CPUs get the best mileage out of Turboboost).

That put these dual-core 28W CPUs in complicated position, though. Without extra cores, it is unlikely they will perform much better than their 15W counterparts, especially since their TB frequency actually are nearly identical. No wonder only ASUS announced a model which uses it, and even for them, it is only for a specific configuration.

 

There's a reason nearly every manufacturer has settled on two or three processors. For most people - even for some power users - they are good enough with burst mode for speed. Does that mean the fan will kick in? Probably. It's all about the right system design as you point out with the ASUS. I'll use my Panasonic CF-J10 which has 16GB, the i7 (full), etc. Nice machine, but things like SATA II hamper it severely. It's noticeably slower than my Duo or Pro all around even with less memory and a supposedly worse processor. I think that Panasonic may have gotten it right in the LX3, but who knows.

There will always be players who will use that better chip in some machines - no doubt. But it's niche. Will be interesting to see if any of the bigger players - Sony included - bring anything back that is powerful and under 4lbs. Stuff like the M3800 will always be a no-go for me due to weight and size.

 

Personally I'd love to have one. The base frequency is 1ghz higher, and it could really come in handy for even everyday normal things. Yesterday I was streaming an HD video from my computer to my TV (through my xbox) and the video type wasn't supported so it had to be transcoded in real time (and this was a two hour movie). Luckily the software I use supports real time transcoding... Turbo boost is definitely extremely useful for short tasks and very cool conceptually but you can't beat having an actual higher clock speed in your proc.

Personally I don't think ULVs are there yet and I really really don't want a 15W. But I guess I've made that clear.

Anyways, I'll probably end up having to stick with my Z3 for a while until something better comes along.

 

I had the DUO 13 and yes, the Wifi was that bad. My mothers 6 year old Medion (really low end machine in Europe) had a better reception nad wifi speed than my DUO. Also there was a constan buzzing sound and sometimes a high frequent noise. Was kind of disappointed from my 2000€ DUO.
Thats why Im looking forward to the Flip.

Also the information with the case is interesting. There are so many Wifi problems with the DUO that I think its a design fault. I can imagine that the stop the line and exchange it with the Flip.

 

Does anybody have an idea when Sony will start shipping these devices (other than the October/November we got at IFA) ?

 

Cheek,

in October. First the models with 13" and 15" will come to market in Europe. Some info about prices: 999 EUR for 13" Core i3 with 128 SSD. 1499 EUR for Core i7 + 256 SSD. Flip 15: quite interesitng: the mininal config will have Intel 3556U processor and HD Graphics. This is for 800 EUR! The maximal one will have Graphics 4400 + NVIDIA GeForce GT 735M, Core i7 and 1TB +16 GB SSD, all this is for 1500 EUR.

Please note that the batteries will differ on the 13"- and 15"-inchers.

Right now there is no info on 14" ones. Flip 11 will appear in late November in several configurations. The advanced one will gain 4 cores, Bay Trail.

About Tap 11 Tablet. Some models got an integrated LTE! One of the top models to ship to Germany is like that: i5-4210Y + 128 SSD + 4 GB DDR3 + LTE. Price tag: 1200 EUR. The minal one will ship WITHOUT LTE. It has Pentium 3560Y on board. Price: 800 EUR.

About battery life on Tap 11. About 5 hours, according to Sony estimates. Whoops ... Tap 11 is also to come in mid-late October.

 

Since you have some insider details on specs and release dates, do you know if Sony is planning to refresh the Duo 11 with Haswell? If so, when? I really want one with an i7 4650/HD 5000 config. It doesn't sound like the Flip 11 will have such an option with Bay Trail.

 

Awesome. What about USA release date?

 

What's the battery life on the 13 and 14 inchers?

 

Where do you get the information about the Flip 11?
Are there any ongoing informations about this device (digitzer, screen, batterylife...) released?

 

I thought the Flip 11 will be released next year (beginning)?
About the battery life. It has the about the same specs as the DUO 13, so I think it will be around the same. 8-10h

 

The Flip 11 doesn't have the same specs as the Duo 13. The Flip 11 will run on Bay Trail - lower power, lower batt consumption. If the Flip 11 was spec'ed like the Duo 13, I'd buy it as soon as I could. They will probably be able to cut down the weight (battery) of the Flip 11 because of the Atom processor.

 

I'm pretty sure teiger was talking about the Flip 13 in the second part of his post.

 

Hi, guys, all the info I have I redirected to Sohrab here, with direct reference to Sony Europe: Sony VAIO Tap 11, Flip 13, and Flip 15 Prices Revealed

No idea about the future of Duos. What I can say is that there is clear price differentiation between two families of hybrids, Duo and Flip. So you may expect renewal/update of Duo 11 by the end of 2013 - early 2014.

No info about Flip 11 configs. This machine has not come yet to serial production. I believe one should expect about firm 6 hours of battery life in reality on Flip 13. As I said, Flip 15" and Flip 13" has two different battery packs. One is BPS40, the other one is VGP-BPS41. Please google if you want to know about actual Whr capacity of each.

US prices: basically, the same, yet in USD. Even more configs. October.

 

Hi guys, 13 and 15" models are available for order in couple of German stores (with unknown shipping date)
Sony Vaio Fit multi-flip SV-F15N1X2E/B schwarz Preisvergleich | Geizhals EU

But at least Amazon is showing weight : 1.5kg for 13" and 2.4 for 15" which is more that I was hoping for

Also it looks that 15" is equipped with two drives, Sata and SSD, which i hope is mSata, so it could be easy upgradable

 

A lot of other pages say its about 1,2kg.

@Aiga I didnt find anything about the battery capacity of the Flip 13. Searched for your VGP-BPS41 but nothing shows up. Do you have some Information?
DUO 13 has a ~6.900 mah battery if I remember correctly.

 

Guys, Flip 13" weighs about 1.3 kg, while 15" with HDD is indeed quite a "heavy" one, about 2.2 kg or so. 14"-incher goes closer to 2 kg.

Both batteries are internal, therefore I believe they would not be shipped to retail stores but authorised service centers. Capacity is a delicate matter, the smaller one should not exceed appr. 3800-4000 mAh, the bigger for 14"-15" is about 4200-4400 or so. I'd be happy to err! Take it as my guesses .

 

Better would be around 6500mAh. Want the same runtime as the DUO 13. All I can do is wait and hope.

 

teiger,
Flip family is not of a premium. Indeed, it would be great to see 5000 mAh or higher, given the Optimus and HDD on 15".

 

Considering that it says "Produktgewicht inkl. Verpackung", that means weight including packaging (so counting even the charger), the weight seems in line with what has been said so far.

 

Amazon has it? Where? Also, is there a release date then?

 

Here you can search German stores by product symbol
Sony Vaio Fit multi-flip SV-F15N1X2E/B schwarz Preisvergleich | Geizhals EU

In one store i saw information "available in 2 weeks"

BTW, guys, do you know if the standard HD 4400 can handle 2560x1440 resolution on external monitor without mirroring? Or i have to choose model with 735M

 

The sony press site (EU) said, that you can preorder the flip on 1. october. Still cant find it. Anyone knows smt about it?

 

+1 also keeping my eye out. Perhaps they are waiting until win 8.1 is officially released as suggested earlier in the thread? Would be nice if Sony confirmed the preorder date like some other manufacturers do.

 

Dont think that they wait till Win 8.1
I mean Win 8.1 comes out on 18.10. and Sony will realease the Flips in the end of october.

 

But 18.10 is mid October? So if they wait until 31.10 it will be after the win 8.1 release?

 

Though this debate is mostly over by now, I am posting the link to German Zenbook Infinity review here anyway.

Test Asus Zenbook Infinity UX301LA Ultrabook - Notebookcheck.com Tests

It pretty much shows why nobody else decided to use 4558U -- there simply is no point in doing so. On CPU side, 4558U is about 2% faster than 4650U in single-threaded apps, whereas about 20% faster in multi-threaded apps. Even more disappointingly, much touted Iris 5100 gets FPSs only about 20% more than HD4400/HD5000 (disregard 3DMark, as Intel CPUs are always tuned for 3DMark). I don't want to sound off as being spiteful, but I am tempted to yell out "told you so" now.....